From linuxhippy at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 12:23:58 2008 From: linuxhippy at gmail.com (Clemens Eisserer) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 21:23:58 +0200 Subject: challenge question In-Reply-To: <15e8b9d20808312332r48afcbb7lb162437dc20bf4c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <489B6CAF.9090105@jazillian.com> <1218196729.3658.5.camel@nirvana> <15e8b9d20808080753s690bcd9flc4a85b6a1c934aa5@mail.gmail.com> <15e8b9d20808312332r48afcbb7lb162437dc20bf4c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <194f62550809021223p2d47dd9bj8cdf2661612536ba@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ray, > Can you please tell us when you expect to announce the winners? Some estimated date would be really cool, I guess everybody has been waiting the last two weeks nervously ;) Thanks, Clemens From neugens at limasoftware.net Tue Sep 2 12:31:57 2008 From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:31:57 +0200 Subject: challenge question In-Reply-To: <194f62550809021223p2d47dd9bj8cdf2661612536ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <489B6CAF.9090105@jazillian.com> <1218196729.3658.5.camel@nirvana> <15e8b9d20808080753s690bcd9flc4a85b6a1c934aa5@mail.gmail.com> <15e8b9d20808312332r48afcbb7lb162437dc20bf4c5@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809021223p2d47dd9bj8cdf2661612536ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1220383917.3462.2.camel@nirvana> Il giorno mar, 02/09/2008 alle 21.23 +0200, Clemens Eisserer ha scritto: > Hi Ray, > > > Can you please tell us when you expect to announce the winners? > Some estimated date would be really cool, I guess everybody has been > waiting the last two weeks nervously ;) > > Thanks, Clemens Hi Ray! I second Clemens :) Not that I want to push, but just some hints at least... Cheers, Mario From linuxhippy at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 12:32:23 2008 From: linuxhippy at gmail.com (Clemens Eisserer) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:32:23 +0200 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? Message-ID: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> Hello, Jdk-collaboration seems quite dead now, but I have a patch which has not been looked for some time, and I would prefer of course to contribute that patch under the OpenJDK umbrella. Are there plans to open-source Webstart too? Thank you in advance, Clemens From mark at klomp.org Wed Sep 10 14:41:50 2008 From: mark at klomp.org (Mark Wielaard) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:41:50 +0200 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1221082910.26700.4.camel@hermans.wildebeest.org> Hi Clemens, On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 21:32 +0200, Clemens Eisserer wrote: > Are there plans to open-source Webstart too? IcedTea contains a free software webstart implementation that provides you a javaws binary. Look under rt/net. It is based on NetX and distributed under the GPL of course. Cheers, Mark From neugens at limasoftware.net Wed Sep 10 15:01:39 2008 From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:01:39 +0200 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1221084099.3336.4.camel@nirvana> Il giorno mer, 10/09/2008 alle 21.32 +0200, Clemens Eisserer ha scritto: > Hello, > > Jdk-collaboration seems quite dead now, but I have a patch which has > not been looked for some time, and I would prefer of course to > contribute that patch under the OpenJDK umbrella. > Are there plans to open-source Webstart too? > > Thank you in advance, Clemens Hi Clemens! I don't think that "jdk-collaboration seems quite dead now", we are even talking about making a public API change for our peer project on the awt/swing/java2d lists :) Please, give a look at icedtea, surely the patch will go in there and after that it will be easier make it land into openjdk. Cheers, Mario From Dalibor.Topic at Sun.COM Wed Sep 10 15:12:23 2008 From: Dalibor.Topic at Sun.COM (Dalibor Topic) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:12:23 +0200 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <1221084099.3336.4.camel@nirvana> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <1221084099.3336.4.camel@nirvana> Message-ID: <48C84647.5050009@sun.com> Mario Torre wrote: > I don't think that "jdk-collaboration seems quite dead now", we are even > talking about making a public API change for our peer project on the > awt/swing/java2d lists :) > I'm pretty sure that Clemens is talking about Peabody, aka jdk-collaboration project, i.e. the collaboration project around the JRLd code base. cheers, dalibor topic -- ******************************************************************* Dalibor Topic Tel: (+49 40) 23 646 738 Java F/OSS Ambassador AIM: robiladonaim Sun Microsystems GmbH Mobile: (+49 177) 2664 192 Nagelsweg 55 http://openjdk.java.net D-20097 Hamburg mailto:Dalibor.Topic at sun.com Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sonnenallee 1, D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten Amtsgericht M?nchen: HRB 161028 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Thomas Schr?der, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland B?mer Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin H?ring From gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org Wed Sep 10 15:27:02 2008 From: gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org (Andrew John Hughes) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:27:02 +0100 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/10 Clemens Eisserer : > Hello, > > Jdk-collaboration seems quite dead now, I think OpenJDK is anything but dead, although things have been noticeably quieter from Sun since JavaOne and the departures in June. There seems to be plenty of hacking going on with the JDK7 tree however, and from what I hear, there is also work going on behind closed doors that will appear there. I suspect making any of these changes available in OpenJDK6/IcedTea6 will however fall upon backports from Joe Darcy and the IcedTea team. Free Java was around before Sun, and should the worst happen, it will survive without them again. I think this is highly unlikely of course, but OpenJDK could be maintained by the outside community, should such an eventuality occur. The biggest problem at the moment is the JCK. I'm quite happy for Sun to use this to certify their own mashed-up proprietary/Free builds inside Sun labs, and equally it's been great to see this applied to a purely Free build by Red Hat. However, what disturbed me recently was seeing this used as a tool for patch approval during the AWT/Swing/Java2D discussion Mario mentions. A Free project being dependent on a proprietary test suite for patches is just as bad as it being dependent on proprietary tools to build. As Mark mentioned in reply to this, we should work towards improving jtreg and Mauve to ensure a Free test suite is available and not rely on the JCK. Cheers, -- Andrew :-) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://openjdk.java.net PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8 From neugens at limasoftware.net Wed Sep 10 15:28:29 2008 From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:28:29 +0200 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <48C84647.5050009@sun.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <1221084099.3336.4.camel@nirvana> <48C84647.5050009@sun.com> Message-ID: <1221085709.3336.5.camel@nirvana> Il giorno gio, 11/09/2008 alle 00.12 +0200, Dalibor Topic ha scritto: > Mario Torre wrote: > > I don't think that "jdk-collaboration seems quite dead now", we are even > > talking about making a public API change for our peer project on the > > awt/swing/java2d lists :) > > > I'm pretty sure that Clemens is talking about Peabody, aka > jdk-collaboration project, i.e. the > collaboration project around the JRLd code base. ops :) Cheers, Mario From neugens at limasoftware.net Wed Sep 10 16:50:55 2008 From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 01:50:55 +0200 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1221090655.3336.31.camel@nirvana> Il giorno mer, 10/09/2008 alle 23.27 +0100, Andrew John Hughes ha scritto: > was seeing this used as a tool for patch approval during the > AWT/Swing/Java2D discussion Mario > mentions. A Free project being dependent on a proprietary test suite You are completely right of course, and I totally support Mark reply to that same post. I want to add one thing though. The requirement for our code to pass the JCK is because they want (oh, let's say we want) to include it into the mainline, that is, Java(TM), not "just" OpenJDK. There is a big difference in the two things, despite the code is in fact the same (minus really minor things of course). I'm not saying that this is ok, because I still find it odd, but I can understand it. Despite this, I will not run the JCK without asking first legal advice (its click through is really scaring!), but I don't care if others do. Finally, including the code into mailing is much more important to me than fixing the issue with who has to run the JCK (again, I'm not saying this is not an important issue that has to be fixed), because we are external developers (well... ehm... at least so far... :) and this is really a big change that can have much more impact on the way things will work in the future, so let's do things one at a time. Cheers, Mario, who really wants to go to sleep now, as it was a long day... From neugens at limasoftware.net Wed Sep 10 16:53:59 2008 From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 01:53:59 +0200 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <1221090655.3336.31.camel@nirvana> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <1221090655.3336.31.camel@nirvana> Message-ID: <1221090839.3336.34.camel@nirvana> Il giorno gio, 11/09/2008 alle 01.50 +0200, Mario Torre ha scritto: > Il giorno mer, 10/09/2008 alle 23.27 +0100, Andrew John Hughes ha > scritto: > Finally, including the code into mailing is much more important to me ^^^^^^^ This of course is a screwed version of "mainline" :) Cheers and good night :) Mario From linuxhippy at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 01:46:45 2008 From: linuxhippy at gmail.com (Clemens Eisserer) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:46:45 +0200 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> Hello, > I think OpenJDK is anything but dead As Dalibor already mentioned I was talking about jdk-collaboration.dev.java.net, not OpenJDK. JDK-collboration is basically dead, almost no-one uses it anymore and also Sun devs seem to ignore whats happening there. Yes, I know the webstart implementation integrated in IcedTea. However I've heard some rumors that it shouldn't take long until we see Sun's implementation open-sourced, so I don't want to work on code that will be replaced sooner or later. Furthermore I have already written some specific patches for Sun's implementation and well, nothing important just a few clean-ups - but as it seems at jdk-collaboration no one is watching at all. lg Clemens From gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org Thu Sep 11 02:00:23 2008 From: gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org (Andrew John Hughes) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:00:23 +0100 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <1221090655.3336.31.camel@nirvana> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <1221090655.3336.31.camel@nirvana> Message-ID: <17c6771e0809110200k6692ae06xbcba74c8aad10922@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/11 Mario Torre : > Il giorno mer, 10/09/2008 alle 23.27 +0100, Andrew John Hughes ha > scritto: > >> was seeing this used as a tool for patch approval during the >> AWT/Swing/Java2D discussion Mario >> mentions. A Free project being dependent on a proprietary test suite > > You are completely right of course, and I totally support Mark reply to > that same post. > > I want to add one thing though. The requirement for our code to pass the > JCK is because they want (oh, let's say we want) to include it into the > mainline, that is, Java(TM), not "just" OpenJDK. There is a big > difference in the two things, despite the code is in fact the same > (minus really minor things of course). > > I'm not saying that this is ok, because I still find it odd, but I can > understand it. Despite this, I will not run the JCK without asking first > legal advice (its click through is really scaring!), but I don't care if > others do. > > Finally, including the code into mailing is much more important to me > than fixing the issue with who has to run the JCK (again, I'm not saying > this is not an important issue that has to be fixed), because we are > external developers (well... ehm... at least so far... :) and this is > really a big change that can have much more impact on the way things > will work in the future, so let's do things one at a time. > > Cheers, > Mario, who really wants to go to sleep now, as it was a long day... > > > I agree pretty much with what you say, and, as I think you picked up on, my issue is not so much that the code has to pass the JCK tests, but who is responsible for running these and fixing any issues. If Sun want it to remain proprietary, then they should also be willing to take on the responsibility of running it for and fixing up issues with external contributions. Otherwise, you effectively introduce a proprietary software mandate on any contributions. FWIW, I don't think the license can be too bad if Red Hat are prepared to sign up to it, but I'll leave others more knowledgable to comment more on that. -- Andrew :-) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://openjdk.java.net PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8 From gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org Thu Sep 11 02:10:28 2008 From: gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org (Andrew John Hughes) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:10:28 +0100 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17c6771e0809110210v1bf9469gf138a5f7c15a18dd@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/11 Clemens Eisserer : > Hello, > >> I think OpenJDK is anything but dead > As Dalibor already mentioned I was talking about > jdk-collaboration.dev.java.net, not OpenJDK. Yes. I've never heard of this before and I guess most of the Free Java hackers won't have. Dalibor is one of the exceptions; he seems to be kinda omniscient when it comes to Java stuff. > JDK-collboration is basically dead, almost no-one uses it anymore and > also Sun devs seem to ignore whats happening there. Well my guess would be it's now deprecated, given OpenJDK exists. Why would we need two, especially as I presume JDK collaboration is a proprietary project? > > Yes, I know the webstart implementation integrated in IcedTea. > However I've heard some rumors that it shouldn't take long until we > see Sun's implementation open-sourced, so I don't want to work on code > that will be replaced sooner or later. Yeah, this issue is annoying and one of the areas where I think OpenJDK is still failing as a community project. If Sun have things like WebStart and a plugin which are potentially going to drop from the sky, pretty much complete at some random point, this inevitably causes issues with the external developers who have no idea when this is going to happen and how feasible it is to work on a replacement. We've heard tell of a plugin over six months ago at FOSDEM. It's present in the proprietary JDK apparently. Yet it's still not surfaced in OpenJDK with no news on what's happened. We can hardly carry on without plugin or webstart support for months on end, in the hope that someday Sun will be benevolently release their implementation. Vendors like Red Hat need to be shipping such support to their customers now, hence support is being developed in IcedTea. It will be annoying when Sun finally do release their version but they've put the community in a position where this can't be helped. The same happened with the binary plugs, and little seems to have changed as yet. > Furthermore I have already written some specific patches for Sun's > implementation and well, nothing important just a few clean-ups - but > as it seems at jdk-collaboration no one is watching at all. > Make sure they apply against OpenJDK and then mail them to the appropriate list -- there are several to choose from :) > lg Clemens > Cheers, -- Andrew :-) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://openjdk.java.net PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8 From aph at redhat.com Thu Sep 11 02:24:10 2008 From: aph at redhat.com (Andrew Haley) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:24:10 +0100 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C8E3BA.5080000@redhat.com> Andrew John Hughes wrote: > The biggest problem at the moment is the JCK. I'm quite happy for > Sun to use this to certify their own mashed-up proprietary/Free > builds inside Sun labs, and equally it's been great to see this > applied to a purely Free build by Red Hat. However, what disturbed > me recently was seeing this used as a tool for patch approval during > the AWT/Swing/Java2D discussion Mario mentions. Why not? A gcc patch that failed Plum Hall testing would be rejected too, assuming (or course) that the Plum Hall test was valid. > A Free project being dependent on a proprietary test suite for > patches is just as bad as it being dependent on proprietary tools to > build. As Mark mentioned in reply to this, we should work towards > improving jtreg and Mauve to ensure a Free test suite is available > and not rely on the JCK. It's not going to happen. The TCK tests a whole lot of minute details of Java langauge compatibility that are not fully explained in the Javadoc, and so any open test suite that does not derive from the TCK will not be complete. Andrew. From gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org Thu Sep 11 03:10:56 2008 From: gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org (Andrew John Hughes) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:10:56 +0100 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <48C8E3BA.5080000@redhat.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <48C8E3BA.5080000@redhat.com> Message-ID: <17c6771e0809110310m73602c4dte7422e1061654d23@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/11 Andrew Haley : > Andrew John Hughes wrote: > >> The biggest problem at the moment is the JCK. I'm quite happy for >> Sun to use this to certify their own mashed-up proprietary/Free >> builds inside Sun labs, and equally it's been great to see this >> applied to a purely Free build by Red Hat. However, what disturbed >> me recently was seeing this used as a tool for patch approval during >> the AWT/Swing/Java2D discussion Mario mentions. > > Why not? A gcc patch that failed Plum Hall testing would be rejected > too, assuming (or course) that the Plum Hall test was valid. > I'm not saying that ensuring a patch doesn't cause a regression with the test suite is not important; on the contrary, I think it's very important and wish it was more strongly enforced for GNU Classpath. The problem is -- who's going to run the test suite? Besides the legal problems with the JCK (which I assume would also prevent any kind of public continuous integration testing), from what you say it is non-trivial to get this set up. Should that be a requirement on every possible contributor or should it be handled further up? >> A Free project being dependent on a proprietary test suite for >> patches is just as bad as it being dependent on proprietary tools to >> build. As Mark mentioned in reply to this, we should work towards >> improving jtreg and Mauve to ensure a Free test suite is available >> and not rely on the JCK. > > It's not going to happen. The TCK tests a whole lot of minute details > of Java language compatibility that are not fully explained in the > Javadoc, and so any open test suite that does not derive from the TCK > will not be complete. > Yes, unfortunately I don't see it happening either, but it's a disturbing state of affairs. For one thing, such details not being documented is a barrier to alternate implementations and I can see why the TCK is restricted to derivations of OpenJDK. > Andrew. > -- Andrew :-) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://openjdk.java.net PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8 From mark at klomp.org Thu Sep 11 03:18:49 2008 From: mark at klomp.org (Mark Wielaard) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:18:49 +0200 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <48C8E3BA.5080000@redhat.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <48C8E3BA.5080000@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1221128329.3246.14.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 10:24 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: > Andrew John Hughes wrote: > > > The biggest problem at the moment is the JCK. I'm quite happy for > > Sun to use this to certify their own mashed-up proprietary/Free > > builds inside Sun labs, and equally it's been great to see this > > applied to a purely Free build by Red Hat. However, what disturbed > > me recently was seeing this used as a tool for patch approval during > > the AWT/Swing/Java2D discussion Mario mentions. > > Why not? A gcc patch that failed Plum Hall testing would be rejected > too, assuming (or course) that the Plum Hall test was valid. I couldn't find any recent examples of Plum Hall testing against gcc patch reviews and rejection of patches because of them. But I am pretty sure the submitter isn't responsible for getting a license agreement with Plum Hall for contributing to GCC. The problem with the TCK is precisely that you need to enter an NDA agreement with Sun over it and that there is no public discussion about the validity of the tests. Publicly it isn't even know which patches went in because they made a TCK test pass or because they just invalidated a TCK test and got it added to the exception lists. The problem with the current NDA TCK setup is that that you cannot share tests and code snippets from it with the rest of the community, your users and customers. You either end up rewriting the tests so you can publicly share it with others on the mailinglists. Or you have to say "just trust me, the TCK tests for this particular corner case in this particular way, so this patch is necessary even though I cannot really proof it". Neither is really satisfactory. But I would opt for the rewriting the tests so we have a free replacement. > > A Free project being dependent on a proprietary test suite for > > patches is just as bad as it being dependent on proprietary tools to > > build. As Mark mentioned in reply to this, we should work towards > > improving jtreg and Mauve to ensure a Free test suite is available > > and not rely on the JCK. > > It's not going to happen. The TCK tests a whole lot of minute details > of Java langauge compatibility that are not fully explained in the > Javadoc, and so any open test suite that does not derive from the TCK > will not be complete. That could be true, but if so, it is even more important to get this TCK issue resoled and get a free replacement. It clearly points out a deficiency in our current documentation that you are unable to tell from them what the details of a particular method or class really are. I think having a free TCK should be one of the goals for JDK7 at least. Cheers, Mark From geir at pobox.com Thu Sep 11 03:57:15 2008 From: geir at pobox.com (Geir Magnusson Jr.) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 06:57:15 -0400 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <1221128329.3246.14.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <48C8E3BA.5080000@redhat.com> <1221128329.3246.14.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> Message-ID: <684E1931-CD64-427F-97DB-44ABC0CC43C4@pobox.com> The lack of a free/open/public TCK for JDK 6 is simply a business decision on Sun's part. There's no other reason it can't be done right now, rather than have to wait for the as-yet-not-a-JSR Java7 (see : decision, business) to not only get started, but wait 18-24 months to complete. geir On Sep 11, 2008, at 6:18 AM, Mark Wielaard wrote: > On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 10:24 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: >> Andrew John Hughes wrote: >> >>> The biggest problem at the moment is the JCK. I'm quite happy for >>> Sun to use this to certify their own mashed-up proprietary/Free >>> builds inside Sun labs, and equally it's been great to see this >>> applied to a purely Free build by Red Hat. However, what disturbed >>> me recently was seeing this used as a tool for patch approval during >>> the AWT/Swing/Java2D discussion Mario mentions. >> >> Why not? A gcc patch that failed Plum Hall testing would be rejected >> too, assuming (or course) that the Plum Hall test was valid. > > I couldn't find any recent examples of Plum Hall testing against gcc > patch reviews and rejection of patches because of them. But I am > pretty > sure the submitter isn't responsible for getting a license agreement > with Plum Hall for contributing to GCC. > > The problem with the TCK is precisely that you need to enter an NDA > agreement with Sun over it and that there is no public discussion > about > the validity of the tests. Publicly it isn't even know which patches > went in because they made a TCK test pass or because they just > invalidated a TCK test and got it added to the exception lists. > > The problem with the current NDA TCK setup is that that you cannot > share > tests and code snippets from it with the rest of the community, your > users and customers. You either end up rewriting the tests so you can > publicly share it with others on the mailinglists. Or you have to say > "just trust me, the TCK tests for this particular corner case in this > particular way, so this patch is necessary even though I cannot really > proof it". Neither is really satisfactory. But I would opt for the > rewriting the tests so we have a free replacement. > >>> A Free project being dependent on a proprietary test suite for >>> patches is just as bad as it being dependent on proprietary tools to >>> build. As Mark mentioned in reply to this, we should work towards >>> improving jtreg and Mauve to ensure a Free test suite is available >>> and not rely on the JCK. >> >> It's not going to happen. The TCK tests a whole lot of minute >> details >> of Java langauge compatibility that are not fully explained in the >> Javadoc, and so any open test suite that does not derive from the TCK >> will not be complete. > > That could be true, but if so, it is even more important to get this > TCK > issue resoled and get a free replacement. It clearly points out a > deficiency in our current documentation that you are unable to tell > from > them what the details of a particular method or class really are. > > I think having a free TCK should be one of the goals for JDK7 at > least. > > Cheers, > > Mark > From frans at meruvian.org Thu Sep 11 04:00:23 2008 From: frans at meruvian.org (Frans Thamura) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:00:23 +0700 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <684E1931-CD64-427F-97DB-44ABC0CC43C4@pobox.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <48C8E3BA.5080000@redhat.com> <1221128329.3246.14.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> <684E1931-CD64-427F-97DB-44ABC0CC43C4@pobox.com> Message-ID: <3a71add70809110400x1d059828q4749b43790820513@mail.gmail.com> i wish all as open as we want F On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > The lack of a free/open/public TCK for JDK 6 is simply a business decision > on Sun's part. > > There's no other reason it can't be done right now, rather than have to wait > for the as-yet-not-a-JSR Java7 (see : decision, business) to not only get > started, but wait 18-24 months to complete. > > geir > > > On Sep 11, 2008, at 6:18 AM, Mark Wielaard wrote: > >> On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 10:24 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote: >>> >>> Andrew John Hughes wrote: >>> >>>> The biggest problem at the moment is the JCK. I'm quite happy for >>>> Sun to use this to certify their own mashed-up proprietary/Free >>>> builds inside Sun labs, and equally it's been great to see this >>>> applied to a purely Free build by Red Hat. However, what disturbed >>>> me recently was seeing this used as a tool for patch approval during >>>> the AWT/Swing/Java2D discussion Mario mentions. >>> >>> Why not? A gcc patch that failed Plum Hall testing would be rejected >>> too, assuming (or course) that the Plum Hall test was valid. >> >> I couldn't find any recent examples of Plum Hall testing against gcc >> patch reviews and rejection of patches because of them. But I am pretty >> sure the submitter isn't responsible for getting a license agreement >> with Plum Hall for contributing to GCC. >> >> The problem with the TCK is precisely that you need to enter an NDA >> agreement with Sun over it and that there is no public discussion about >> the validity of the tests. Publicly it isn't even know which patches >> went in because they made a TCK test pass or because they just >> invalidated a TCK test and got it added to the exception lists. >> >> The problem with the current NDA TCK setup is that that you cannot share >> tests and code snippets from it with the rest of the community, your >> users and customers. You either end up rewriting the tests so you can >> publicly share it with others on the mailinglists. Or you have to say >> "just trust me, the TCK tests for this particular corner case in this >> particular way, so this patch is necessary even though I cannot really >> proof it". Neither is really satisfactory. But I would opt for the >> rewriting the tests so we have a free replacement. >> >>>> A Free project being dependent on a proprietary test suite for >>>> patches is just as bad as it being dependent on proprietary tools to >>>> build. As Mark mentioned in reply to this, we should work towards >>>> improving jtreg and Mauve to ensure a Free test suite is available >>>> and not rely on the JCK. >>> >>> It's not going to happen. The TCK tests a whole lot of minute details >>> of Java langauge compatibility that are not fully explained in the >>> Javadoc, and so any open test suite that does not derive from the TCK >>> will not be complete. >> >> That could be true, but if so, it is even more important to get this TCK >> issue resoled and get a free replacement. It clearly points out a >> deficiency in our current documentation that you are unable to tell from >> them what the details of a particular method or class really are. >> >> I think having a free TCK should be one of the goals for JDK7 at least. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Mark >> > > -- -- Frans Thamura Meruvian Group One Stop Java and Enterprise OSS Provider Technopreneurship, Training, Internship, Outsourcing and Corporate Competency Center Mobile: +62 855 7888 699 Blog & Profile: http://frans.thamura.info Training JENI, Medallion (Alfresco, Liferay dan Compiere).. buruan... URL: http://nagasakti.mervpolis.com/roller/mervnews/entry/jeni_training_compiere_dan_alfresco From Onno.Kluyt at Sun.COM Thu Sep 11 07:18:31 2008 From: Onno.Kluyt at Sun.COM (Onno Kluyt) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:18:31 -0400 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We have not yet decided on a specific plan regarding open sourcing of the plugin and webstart code. We may eventually add this to OpenJDK but it is certainly not imminent. Onno. On Sep 11, 2008, at 4:46 AM, Clemens Eisserer wrote: > Hello, > >> I think OpenJDK is anything but dead > As Dalibor already mentioned I was talking about > jdk-collaboration.dev.java.net, not OpenJDK. > JDK-collboration is basically dead, almost no-one uses it anymore and > also Sun devs seem to ignore whats happening there. > > Yes, I know the webstart implementation integrated in IcedTea. > However I've heard some rumors that it shouldn't take long until we > see Sun's implementation open-sourced, so I don't want to work on code > that will be replaced sooner or later. > Furthermore I have already written some specific patches for Sun's > implementation and well, nothing important just a few clean-ups - but > as it seems at jdk-collaboration no one is watching at all. > > lg Clemens From frans at meruvian.org Thu Sep 11 07:37:46 2008 From: frans at meruvian.org (Frans Thamura) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:37:46 +0700 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a71add70809110737n149dc01ge8c98cc6045cb5be@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Onno Kluyt wrote: > We have not yet decided on a specific plan regarding open sourcing of the > plugin and webstart code. We may eventually add this to OpenJDK but it is > certainly not imminent. the ads said that 100% OpenSource.. any list that is not opensource outside the webstart and plugins? F From geir at pobox.com Thu Sep 11 08:29:12 2008 From: geir at pobox.com (Geir Magnusson Jr.) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:29:12 -0400 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <3a71add70809110737n149dc01ge8c98cc6045cb5be@mail.gmail.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> <3a71add70809110737n149dc01ge8c98cc6045cb5be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <655BBB9E-6438-4151-88E2-BF96C964E70C@pobox.com> On Sep 11, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Frans Thamura wrote: > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Onno Kluyt > wrote: >> We have not yet decided on a specific plan regarding open sourcing >> of the >> plugin and webstart code. We may eventually add this to OpenJDK but >> it is >> certainly not imminent. > > the ads said that 100% OpenSource.. To be fair, I don't think they are part of the JDK, are they? geir > > > any list that is not opensource outside the webstart and plugins? > > > F From geir at pobox.com Thu Sep 11 08:33:15 2008 From: geir at pobox.com (Geir Magnusson Jr.) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:33:15 -0400 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64066D75-D8FB-4A83-A841-14983D21127A@pobox.com> Question... Is there a private copy of the JDK somewhere that sun uses? if so, what's different? Is it a fork? I thought openJDK's repo was the public one. geir On Sep 11, 2008, at 10:18 AM, Onno Kluyt wrote: > We have not yet decided on a specific plan regarding open sourcing > of the plugin and webstart code. We may eventually add this to > OpenJDK but it is certainly not imminent. > > Onno. > > On Sep 11, 2008, at 4:46 AM, Clemens Eisserer wrote: > >> Hello, >> >>> I think OpenJDK is anything but dead >> As Dalibor already mentioned I was talking about >> jdk-collaboration.dev.java.net, not OpenJDK. >> JDK-collboration is basically dead, almost no-one uses it anymore and >> also Sun devs seem to ignore whats happening there. >> >> Yes, I know the webstart implementation integrated in IcedTea. >> However I've heard some rumors that it shouldn't take long until we >> see Sun's implementation open-sourced, so I don't want to work on >> code >> that will be replaced sooner or later. >> Furthermore I have already written some specific patches for Sun's >> implementation and well, nothing important just a few clean-ups - but >> as it seems at jdk-collaboration no one is watching at all. >> >> lg Clemens > From geir at pobox.com Thu Sep 11 08:33:25 2008 From: geir at pobox.com (Geir Magnusson Jr.) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:33:25 -0400 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You can find an open source version here : http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY-5824 geir On Sep 11, 2008, at 10:18 AM, Onno Kluyt wrote: > We have not yet decided on a specific plan regarding open sourcing > of the plugin and webstart code. We may eventually add this to > OpenJDK but it is certainly not imminent. > > Onno. > > On Sep 11, 2008, at 4:46 AM, Clemens Eisserer wrote: > >> Hello, >> >>> I think OpenJDK is anything but dead >> As Dalibor already mentioned I was talking about >> jdk-collaboration.dev.java.net, not OpenJDK. >> JDK-collboration is basically dead, almost no-one uses it anymore and >> also Sun devs seem to ignore whats happening there. >> >> Yes, I know the webstart implementation integrated in IcedTea. >> However I've heard some rumors that it shouldn't take long until we >> see Sun's implementation open-sourced, so I don't want to work on >> code >> that will be replaced sooner or later. >> Furthermore I have already written some specific patches for Sun's >> implementation and well, nothing important just a few clean-ups - but >> as it seems at jdk-collaboration no one is watching at all. >> >> lg Clemens > From mthornton at optrak.co.uk Thu Sep 11 08:34:21 2008 From: mthornton at optrak.co.uk (Mark Thornton) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:34:21 +0100 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <655BBB9E-6438-4151-88E2-BF96C964E70C@pobox.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> <3a71add70809110737n149dc01ge8c98cc6045cb5be@mail.gmail.com> <655BBB9E-6438-4151-88E2-BF96C964E70C@pobox.com> Message-ID: <48C93A7D.5020308@optrak.co.uk> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > > On Sep 11, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Frans Thamura wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Onno Kluyt wrote: >>> We have not yet decided on a specific plan regarding open sourcing >>> of the >>> plugin and webstart code. We may eventually add this to OpenJDK but >>> it is >>> certainly not imminent. >> >> the ads said that 100% OpenSource.. > > To be fair, I don't think they are part of the JDK, are they? > > geir Given that the JRE is part of the JDK and the plugins and Webstart have been installed with the JRE for many years (from the very beginning in the case of plugins), I think it is hard to separate them in practical terms. Mark Thornton From geir at pobox.com Thu Sep 11 09:03:57 2008 From: geir at pobox.com (Geir Magnusson Jr.) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:03:57 -0400 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <48C93A7D.5020308@optrak.co.uk> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> <3a71add70809110737n149dc01ge8c98cc6045cb5be@mail.gmail.com> <655BBB9E-6438-4151-88E2-BF96C964E70C@pobox.com> <48C93A7D.5020308@optrak.co.uk> Message-ID: <53B67052-2E98-4804-8349-D0BC3DD55172@pobox.com> sun bundles other non-spec things like Derby aka "JavaDB" also... I don't remember - are these plugins and webstart mentioned in the Java SE spec? geir On Sep 11, 2008, at 11:34 AM, Mark Thornton wrote: > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: >> >> On Sep 11, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Frans Thamura wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Onno Kluyt >>> wrote: >>>> We have not yet decided on a specific plan regarding open >>>> sourcing of the >>>> plugin and webstart code. We may eventually add this to OpenJDK >>>> but it is >>>> certainly not imminent. >>> >>> the ads said that 100% OpenSource.. >> >> To be fair, I don't think they are part of the JDK, are they? >> >> geir > Given that the JRE is part of the JDK and the plugins and Webstart > have been installed with the JRE for many years (from the very > beginning in the case of plugins), I think it is hard to separate > them in practical terms. > > Mark Thornton > From mark at klomp.org Thu Sep 11 09:17:35 2008 From: mark at klomp.org (Mark Wielaard) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:17:35 +0200 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <48C93A7D.5020308@optrak.co.uk> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> <3a71add70809110737n149dc01ge8c98cc6045cb5be@mail.gmail.com> <655BBB9E-6438-4151-88E2-BF96C964E70C@pobox.com> <48C93A7D.5020308@optrak.co.uk> Message-ID: <1221149855.3246.33.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 16:34 +0100, Mark Thornton wrote: > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > > On Sep 11, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Frans Thamura wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Onno Kluyt wrote: > >>> We have not yet decided on a specific plan regarding open sourcing > >>> of the > >>> plugin and webstart code. We may eventually add this to OpenJDK but > >>> it is certainly not imminent. > >> > >> the ads said that 100% OpenSource.. > > > > To be fair, I don't think they are part of the JDK, are they? > > Given that the JRE is part of the JDK and the plugins and Webstart have > been installed with the JRE for many years (from the very beginning in > the case of plugins), I think it is hard to separate them in practical > terms. Yes, users want to use them. That is also why we have included gcjwebplugin as applet viewer and netx as webstart package with icedtea. Deepack is now extending the IcedTeaPlugin to have full stable LiveConnect support also, which is the most reported bug against the openjdk/icedtea packages included with various GNU/Linux distros now. For more info see the Fosdem presentation: http://people.redhat.com/fitzsim/fosdem-2008/fosdem-2008-liveconnect.pdf Which really has some nice technical details about the implementation. Tom's blog on the differences between gcjwebplugin and icedteaplugin: http://fitzsim.org/blog/?p=23 Both are currently included in IcedTea. And both are of course GPLed. Here are the instructions on enabling it all inside IcedTea from when it was merged from IcedTea 7 to IcedTea 6: http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/distro-pkg-dev/2008-July/002634.html Cheers, Mark From mr at sun.com Thu Sep 11 09:21:50 2008 From: mr at sun.com (Mark Reinhold) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:21:50 -0700 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: geir@pobox.com; Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:33:15 EDT; <64066D75-D8FB-4A83-A841-14983D21127A@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20080911162150.855406126@eggemoggin.niobe.net> > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:33:15 -0400 > From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." > Question... > > Is there a private copy of the JDK somewhere that sun uses? if so, > what's different? Is it a fork? > > I thought openJDK's repo was the public one. Sun's proprietary binaries are built from the open repositories augmented by a set of closed repositories which contain additional components (plug-in, web start, installers, etc.) as well as the old encumbered code, which we're still using in the proprietary binaries. Whether or not this truly constitutes a "fork" I'll leave to the philosophers, but it seems to me to be no more a fork than, say, IcedTea. > Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:03:57 -0400 > From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." > sun bundles other non-spec things like Derby aka "JavaDB" also... > > I don't remember - are these plugins and webstart mentioned in the > Java SE spec? No, they are not. There is a JSR (56) for the web-start protocol, but it has never been part of the Java SE Platform. - Mark From David.Herron at Sun.COM Thu Sep 11 09:59:48 2008 From: David.Herron at Sun.COM (David Herron) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:59:48 -0700 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <53B67052-2E98-4804-8349-D0BC3DD55172@pobox.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <194f62550809110146t1f4a4048k9560b68280658cc7@mail.gmail.com> <3a71add70809110737n149dc01ge8c98cc6045cb5be@mail.gmail.com> <655BBB9E-6438-4151-88E2-BF96C964E70C@pobox.com> <48C93A7D.5020308@optrak.co.uk> <53B67052-2E98-4804-8349-D0BC3DD55172@pobox.com> Message-ID: <48C94E84.4080701@sun.com> Geir's point is right on.. The Plugin and JavaWebStart are not part of the platform spec. There have been many things outside the spec which have been bundled with the productized builds... from Rhino to VisualVM to JavaDB to sample code to ...? Mark's point is also right on ... The plugin and javawebstart are pretty darn important pieces of the ecosystem. Clearly the gap is noticeable and that's one of the pieces of value brought to the table by the IcedTea project. Onno's point is also right on ... There is inner discussion and no agreement as yet. - David Herron Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > sun bundles other non-spec things like Derby aka "JavaDB" also... > > I don't remember - are these plugins and webstart mentioned in the > Java SE spec? > > geir > > On Sep 11, 2008, at 11:34 AM, Mark Thornton wrote: > >> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: >>> >>> On Sep 11, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Frans Thamura wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Onno Kluyt >>>> wrote: >>>>> We have not yet decided on a specific plan regarding open sourcing >>>>> of the >>>>> plugin and webstart code. We may eventually add this to OpenJDK >>>>> but it is >>>>> certainly not imminent. >>>> >>>> the ads said that 100% OpenSource.. >>> >>> To be fair, I don't think they are part of the JDK, are they? >>> >>> geir >> Given that the JRE is part of the JDK and the plugins and Webstart >> have been installed with the JRE for many years (from the very >> beginning in the case of plugins), I think it is hard to separate >> them in practical terms. >> >> Mark Thornton >> > From Joe.Darcy at Sun.COM Thu Sep 11 10:15:35 2008 From: Joe.Darcy at Sun.COM (Joseph D. Darcy) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:15:35 -0700 Subject: Will Webstart be integrated in OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <48C8E3BA.5080000@redhat.com> References: <194f62550809101232i4aaf11f2me6eda2ab8351f467@mail.gmail.com> <17c6771e0809101527p24315f09oa91e233fb88223b1@mail.gmail.com> <48C8E3BA.5080000@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48C95237.4070904@sun.com> Andrew Haley wrote: > Andrew John Hughes wrote: > >> The biggest problem at the moment is the JCK. I'm quite happy for >> Sun to use this to certify their own mashed-up proprietary/Free >> builds inside Sun labs, and equally it's been great to see this >> applied to a purely Free build by Red Hat. However, what disturbed >> me recently was seeing this used as a tool for patch approval during >> the AWT/Swing/Java2D discussion Mario mentions. > > Why not? A gcc patch that failed Plum Hall testing would be rejected > too, assuming (or course) that the Plum Hall test was valid. > >> A Free project being dependent on a proprietary test suite for >> patches is just as bad as it being dependent on proprietary tools to >> build. As Mark mentioned in reply to this, we should work towards >> improving jtreg and Mauve to ensure a Free test suite is available >> and not rely on the JCK. > > It's not going to happen. The TCK tests a whole lot of minute details > of Java langauge compatibility that are not fully explained in the > Javadoc, and so any open test suite that does not derive from the TCK > will not be complete. The TCK tests for Java SE have different parts; there is a part to test the compiler and a separate parts to test various libraries. The minute details of the compiler tests are based on the Java Language Specification; the minute details in the libraries tests are based on the javadoc. The TCK tests are supposed to map back to assertions in the specification; some of their test development methodology is discussed at: http://blogs.sun.com/vr/entry/assertions http://blogs.sun.com/vr/entry/two_types_of_assertions -Joe From Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM Thu Sep 11 21:13:02 2008 From: Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM (Xiomara Jayasena) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:13:02 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website Message-ID: <48C9EC4E.3000400@sun.com> The OpenJDK source is available at: http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7 http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7/rev/143c1abedb7d The OpenJDK source binary plugs for the promoted JDK 7 build 35 are available under the openjdk http://openjdk.java.net website under Source Code (direct link to bundles: http://download.java.net/openjdk/jdk7) Summary of changes: http://download.java.net/jdk7/changes/jdk7-b35.html -Xiomara From frans at meruvian.org Fri Sep 12 17:16:12 2008 From: frans at meruvian.org (Frans Thamura) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 07:16:12 +0700 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE Message-ID: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> anyone have a list that compare Sun JDK with OpenJDK and also OpenJDK JRE with "Sun JRE i think we need to know, that the missing tech must be known by public also for their future investment reason esp the stock of sun is 6.4 billion, we dont know the future of Java, but OpenJDK is the future of Java -- -- Frans Thamura Meruvian Group One Stop Java and Enterprise OSS Provider Technopreneurship, Training, Internship, Outsourcing and Corporate Competency Center Mobile: +62 855 7888 699 Blog & Profile: http://frans.thamura.info Training JENI, Medallion (Alfresco, Liferay dan Compiere).. buruan... URL: http://nagasakti.mervpolis.com/roller/mervnews/entry/jeni_training_compiere_dan_alfresco From Dalibor.Topic at Sun.COM Sat Sep 13 06:44:31 2008 From: Dalibor.Topic at Sun.COM (Dalibor Topic) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 15:44:31 +0200 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> Frans Thamura wrote: > anyone have a list that compare Sun JDK with OpenJDK and also OpenJDK > JRE with "Sun JRE There is no OpenJDK JRE, specifically. The comparison that makes sense is one between Sun Java SE 6 JDK and the OpenJDK jdk6 project. Differences are: a) licenses: OpenJDK jdk6 is Free Software, Sun's Java SE 6 JDK downloads are not, in particular because * they contain proprietary third party components (also known as 'encumbrancies'), that wouldn't be trivial to rip and replace in a stable release series * they contain Sun's own proprietary code that has not been / could not be opened up so far b) deployment code: OpenJDK does not have a plugin or a webstart implementation. The code Sun has in the deployment area has been largely rewritten for Java SE 6 update 10, and the new code, being a significant chunk of software, requires a new run through the business decision making process on Sun's side. Meanwhile, the IcedTea project augments the OpenJDK jdk6 project with independent implementations of the plugin and webstart, called gcjwebplugin and netx. Those independent implementations have a different set of strengths and weaknesses from Sun's implementations: they work on 64 bit Linux, for example, a platform that hasn't been supported by Sun's own plugin yet. On the other hand, gcjwebplugin currently lacks an adequate Java-JavaScript integration that's required by some applets to execute as well as expected. c) bundled code: Sun's Java SE 6 download comes with a lot of (third party) software bundled in, for example Java DB, Rhino, Visual VM, etc. OpenJDK jdk 6 project leaves such software out as much as possible, concentrating on the necessities required for a compatible implementation of Java SE 6. IcedTea augments OpenJDK jdk6 with Rhino, though there is still work to be done on making the integration seamless. There is also some initial work on integrating VisualVM into IcedTea. d) encumbered code: The Java SE 6 JDK still mostly contains the ~4 % of encumbered, i.e. third party code that couldn't be licensed as Free Software, and was replaced by open source implementations from the community in OpenJDK 6. cheers, dalibor topic -- ******************************************************************* Dalibor Topic Tel: (+49 40) 23 646 738 Java F/OSS Ambassador AIM: robiladonaim Sun Microsystems GmbH Mobile: (+49 177) 2664 192 Nagelsweg 55 http://openjdk.java.net D-20097 Hamburg mailto:Dalibor.Topic at sun.com Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sonnenallee 1, D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten Amtsgericht M?nchen: HRB 161028 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Thomas Schr?der, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland B?mer Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin H?ring From geir at pobox.com Sat Sep 13 07:02:46 2008 From: geir at pobox.com (Geir Magnusson Jr.) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 10:02:46 -0400 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> Message-ID: <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> On Sep 13, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Dalibor Topic wrote: > Frans Thamura wrote: >> anyone have a list that compare Sun JDK with OpenJDK and also OpenJDK >> JRE with "Sun JRE > There is no OpenJDK JRE, specifically. The comparison that makes sense > is one between > Sun Java SE 6 JDK and the OpenJDK jdk6 project. > > Differences are: > > a) licenses: > > OpenJDK jdk6 is Free Software, Sun's Java SE 6 JDK downloads are > not, in > particular because > * they contain proprietary third party components (also known as > 'encumbrancies'), that wouldn't be trivial to rip and replace in a > stable release series > * they contain Sun's own proprietary code that has not been / could > not > be opened up so far Like what? And why can't it be opened up? > > > b) deployment code: > > OpenJDK does not have a plugin or a webstart implementation. > > The code Sun has in the deployment area has been largely rewritten for > Java SE 6 update 10, and the new code, > being a significant chunk of software, requires a new run through the > business decision making process on Sun's side. I thought you already made the decision to "open source" java, and beyond that, there's Schwartz's commitment to "open source" everything. I know this might come across as trolling, but I am honestly mystified why Sun isn't just going all-in here and just put anything that is their property out under the GPL (I realize there's encumbered stuff, but you should just jettison that stuff and get the replacements from the community). Sun maintains the control they need for the business, and the software receives the "freedom" for which RMS feels it so richly deserves :) Seriously though... why not just OSS it? > > Meanwhile, the IcedTea project augments the OpenJDK jdk6 project with > independent implementations > of the plugin and webstart, called gcjwebplugin and netx. Those > independent implementations have a different > set of strengths and weaknesses from Sun's implementations: they > work on > 64 bit Linux, for example, a platform > that hasn't been supported by Sun's own plugin yet. On the other hand, > gcjwebplugin currently lacks an > adequate Java-JavaScript integration that's required by some applets > to > execute as well as expected. Seems like Sun is using IcedTea as a kind of "shadow project"? I don't follow things closely anymore, but someone was asking me about this the other day and I couldn't really explain it clearly. I find the whole thing baffling. Now that you are a Sun employee and historically have been direct and honest, can you tell us about how this is structured? It appears that there are three repos of Sun-sourced Java code : 1) openjdk, which seems to be an incomplete implementation repository meant to feed... 2) IcedTea, which provides build infrastructure and patches the stuff sun can't or doesn't want to OSS, which itself seems to have a good community 3) Sun's internal repo from which their Java SE product builds are created (confusingly referred to as the RI...), and .... from which the misnamed "JDK 7" builds are created from? Is the latter true? I've never been able to grok where the JDK 7 stuff comes from. I'd have thought all work would be done out here in the opendjk community (after all, it's been *years* since Sun announced the project...) but... Any insight you can provide as an insider would be welcome. > > > c) bundled code: > > Sun's Java SE 6 download comes with a lot of (third party) software > bundled in, for example > Java DB, Rhino, Visual VM, etc. OpenJDK jdk 6 project leaves such > software out as much as possible, > concentrating on the necessities required for a compatible > implementation of Java SE 6. I don't know about VisualVM, but the rest is free/open software. Why not just include those as well? > > > IcedTea augments OpenJDK jdk6 with Rhino, though there is still work > to > be done on making the integration seamless. > There is also some initial work on integrating VisualVM into IcedTea. > > d) encumbered code: > > The Java SE 6 JDK still mostly contains the ~4 % of encumbered, i.e. > third party code that couldn't be licensed as > Free Software, and was replaced by open source implementations from > the > community in OpenJDK 6. So why not jettison the 3rd party code and focus the community around the open/free stuff? Seems like the thing to do if Java is free. I can understand not doing it right off the bat, but it's been years now... geir From frans at meruvian.org Sat Sep 13 07:35:54 2008 From: frans at meruvian.org (frans at meruvian.org) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:35:54 +0700 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> Message-ID: <3a71add70809130735w7d760c12sc06a2eb7b54fb130@mail.gmail.com> Strange that sun still cannot understand the community model, and keep several "Third party" but we dont know which one, which library and why there is not opensource version... why dont u openup and said, this is not opensourced. what did you said in J1.. the JDK is 100% OpenSourced ... still strange... On 9/13/08, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > > On Sep 13, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Dalibor Topic wrote: > >> Frans Thamura wrote: >>> anyone have a list that compare Sun JDK with OpenJDK and also OpenJDK >>> JRE with "Sun JRE >> There is no OpenJDK JRE, specifically. The comparison that makes sense >> is one between >> Sun Java SE 6 JDK and the OpenJDK jdk6 project. >> >> Differences are: >> >> a) licenses: >> >> OpenJDK jdk6 is Free Software, Sun's Java SE 6 JDK downloads are >> not, in >> particular because >> * they contain proprietary third party components (also known as >> 'encumbrancies'), that wouldn't be trivial to rip and replace in a >> stable release series >> * they contain Sun's own proprietary code that has not been / could >> not >> be opened up so far > > Like what? And why can't it be opened up? > >> >> >> b) deployment code: >> >> OpenJDK does not have a plugin or a webstart implementation. >> >> The code Sun has in the deployment area has been largely rewritten for >> Java SE 6 update 10, and the new code, >> being a significant chunk of software, requires a new run through the >> business decision making process on Sun's side. > > I thought you already made the decision to "open source" java, and > beyond that, there's Schwartz's commitment to "open source" everything. > > I know this might come across as trolling, but I am honestly > mystified why Sun isn't just going all-in here and just put anything > that is their property out under the GPL (I realize there's encumbered > stuff, but you should just jettison that stuff and get the > replacements from the community). Sun maintains the control they need > for the business, and the software receives the "freedom" for which > RMS feels it so richly deserves :) > > Seriously though... why not just OSS it? > > >> >> Meanwhile, the IcedTea project augments the OpenJDK jdk6 project with >> independent implementations >> of the plugin and webstart, called gcjwebplugin and netx. Those >> independent implementations have a different >> set of strengths and weaknesses from Sun's implementations: they >> work on >> 64 bit Linux, for example, a platform >> that hasn't been supported by Sun's own plugin yet. On the other hand, >> gcjwebplugin currently lacks an >> adequate Java-JavaScript integration that's required by some applets >> to >> execute as well as expected. > > Seems like Sun is using IcedTea as a kind of "shadow project"? I > don't follow things closely anymore, but someone was asking me about > this the other day and I couldn't really explain it clearly. I find > the whole thing baffling. Now that you are a Sun employee and > historically have been direct and honest, can you tell us about how > this is structured? > > It appears that there are three repos of Sun-sourced Java code : > > 1) openjdk, which seems to be an incomplete implementation repository > meant to feed... > > 2) IcedTea, which provides build infrastructure and patches the stuff > sun can't or doesn't want to OSS, which itself seems to have a good > community > > 3) Sun's internal repo from which their Java SE product builds are > created (confusingly referred to as the RI...), and .... from which > the misnamed "JDK 7" builds are created from? > > Is the latter true? I've never been able to grok where the JDK 7 > stuff comes from. I'd have thought all work would be done out here in > the opendjk community (after all, it's been *years* since Sun > announced the project...) but... > > Any insight you can provide as an insider would be welcome. > >> >> >> c) bundled code: >> >> Sun's Java SE 6 download comes with a lot of (third party) software >> bundled in, for example >> Java DB, Rhino, Visual VM, etc. OpenJDK jdk 6 project leaves such >> software out as much as possible, >> concentrating on the necessities required for a compatible >> implementation of Java SE 6. > > I don't know about VisualVM, but the rest is free/open software. Why > not just include those as well? > >> >> >> IcedTea augments OpenJDK jdk6 with Rhino, though there is still work >> to >> be done on making the integration seamless. >> There is also some initial work on integrating VisualVM into IcedTea. >> >> d) encumbered code: >> >> The Java SE 6 JDK still mostly contains the ~4 % of encumbered, i.e. >> third party code that couldn't be licensed as >> Free Software, and was replaced by open source implementations from >> the >> community in OpenJDK 6. > > So why not jettison the 3rd party code and focus the community around > the open/free stuff? Seems like the thing to do if Java is free. I > can understand not doing it right off the bat, but it's been years > now... > > geir > > -- -- Frans Thamura Meruvian Group One Stop Java and Enterprise OSS Provider Technopreneurship, Training, Internship, Outsourcing and Corporate Competency Center Mobile: +62 855 7888 699 Blog & Profile: http://frans.thamura.info Training JENI, Medallion (Alfresco, Liferay dan Compiere).. buruan... URL: http://nagasakti.mervpolis.com/roller/mervnews/entry/jeni_training_compiere_dan_alfresco From robilad at kaffe.org Sat Sep 13 08:18:32 2008 From: robilad at kaffe.org (Dalibor Topic) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:18:32 +0200 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> Message-ID: <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: >> * they contain Sun's own proprietary code that has not been / could not >> be opened up so far > > Like what? And why can't it be opened up? The old plugin, for example. One could go and invest money and time into readying it up for an open source release, but from an economic perspective, given that the code has been rewritten for 6u10, it may be hard to justify spending resources to do the legal and technical work on liberating the old plugin, I think. >> b) deployment code: > > Seriously though... why not just OSS it? Companies traditionally have processes, accountability, and all that interesting stuff, which all take a little while to maneuver through to make sure the right things happen in the right way with all the right people participating. Given that the new deployment code wasn't started and developed in the open, it means a lot of the decisions that may appear obvious from outside have to be made explicitly and carry a non-trivial implementation cost, for example in lawyer-time, or syncing between OpenJDK 7 and Closed 6 - so there is a pretty good economic argument to be made for finishing off the work on 6u10 first, and getting the new deployment code out of 'beta', before a decision to push it into the OpenJDK 7 tree can be made. > Is the latter true? I've never been able to grok where the JDK 7 > stuff comes from. I'd have thought all work would be done out here in > the opendjk community (after all, it's been *years* since Sun > announced the project...) but... The encumbered third party stuff will need to linger around for the life time of Closed 6, and that implies some Sun repo where the maintenance work on the encumbered stuff is done, and feeds into Closed 6 releases containing it. The IcedTea repo serves as a nice staging ground for code heading for OpenJDK, among other things, and takes some pressure off Sun's back to get things right immediately all the time. As the FSF has found out with GNU Classpath, it's really useful to have a set of sister projects that can juggle different tasks - and IcedTea is doing a great job of providing the playground for patches from GNU/Linux distributions. > I don't know about VisualVM, but the rest is free/open software. Why > not just include those as well? The focus of OpenJDK 6 so far has been to get it into a state where it can be taken and successfully pass the compatibility tests as unencumbered free software. So adding software that does not directly aid that task wasn't particularly important - though given that they are all free software, including Visual VM, there is nothing preventing others to do it. > So why not jettison the 3rd party code and focus the community around > the open/free stuff? That's what OpenJDK 6 has done, indeed. cheers, dalibor topic From mark at klomp.org Sat Sep 13 11:36:12 2008 From: mark at klomp.org (Mark Wielaard) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 20:36:12 +0200 Subject: IcedTea and integration of applet, webstart, javascript/rhino, visualvm, etc. In-Reply-To: <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> Message-ID: <1221330972.3323.33.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> Hi Geir, On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 10:02 -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > On Sep 13, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Dalibor Topic wrote: > > Meanwhile, the IcedTea project augments the OpenJDK jdk6 project with > > independent implementations > > of the plugin and webstart, called gcjwebplugin and netx. Those > > independent implementations have a different > > set of strengths and weaknesses from Sun's implementations: they > > work on 64 bit Linux, for example, a platform > > that hasn't been supported by Sun's own plugin yet. On the other hand, > > gcjwebplugin currently lacks an > > adequate Java-JavaScript integration that's required by some applets > > to execute as well as expected. > > Seems like Sun is using IcedTea as a kind of "shadow project"? I > don't follow things closely anymore, but someone was asking me about > this the other day and I couldn't really explain it clearly. I find > the whole thing baffling. It really isn't that mysterious. It is just a couple of us guys and girls having fun with hacking on and assembling some free software stuff, mostly based around OpenJDK and for a large part consisting of people who have also been involved with other free software java projects for GNU/Linux like GNU Classpath, cacao, kaffe, gcj, etc. There is nothing "shadowy" about it, just look at http://icedtea.classpath.org/ In a way you can see it as an continuation of all the ideas which we shared around GNU Classpath. Creating a large, enthusiastic bunch of people, communities and companies working on all aspects of libre java, working together in harmony. > > Sun's Java SE 6 download comes with a lot of (third party) software > > bundled in, for example > > Java DB, Rhino, Visual VM, etc. OpenJDK jdk 6 project leaves such > > software out as much as possible, > > concentrating on the necessities required for a compatible > > implementation of Java SE 6. > > I don't know about VisualVM, but the rest is free/open software. Why > not just include those as well? We do. IcedTea comes with applet plugins, based on gcjwebplugin and Deepak is now extending the new IcedTeaPlugin with LiveConnect/JavaScript support (./configure --enable-gcjwebplugin or ./configure --enable-liveconnect). I recently added javax.script javascript support through Rhino (./configure --with-rhino). And Joshua added VisualVM integration (./configure --enable-visualvm), although that drags in a big piece of NetBeans (also under the GPL now), so we are looking at how to package that easier/separately. I believe the only thing not integrated yet is JavaDB, but I don't really know any programs using that. If there actually are, we can certainly add that to the mix. As extras IcedTea also comes with cacao integration as replacement for hotspot on those platforms that hotspot hasn't been ported to (./configure --with-cacao). And Zero as hotspot based interpreter (./configure --enable-zero) and shark a jit backend for hotspot still in development (./configure --enable-shark). > So why not jettison the 3rd party code and focus the community around > the open/free stuff? Seems like the thing to do if Java is free. That has been and always will be the goal. Sun (or any company really) cannot do it all alone (maybe partly crippled by some of those business decisions you mention), and that is why we are here to help out wherever we can and provide us all with a completely free Java implementation, integrated well, and as free as you would expect from anything bundled with a GNU/Linux distro. Cheers, Mark From David.Herron at Sun.COM Sat Sep 13 11:36:21 2008 From: David.Herron at Sun.COM (David Herron) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 11:36:21 -0700 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> Message-ID: <48CC0825.1050801@sun.com> Dalibor Topic wrote: > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > >>> * they contain Sun's own proprietary code that has not been / could not >>> be opened up so far >>> >> Like what? And why can't it be opened up? >> > The old plugin, for example. One could go and invest money and time into > readying it up for an open source release, but from an economic > perspective, given that the code has been rewritten for 6u10, it may be > hard to justify spending resources to do the legal and technical work on > liberating the old plugin, I think. > >>> b) deployment code: >>> >> Seriously though... why not just OSS it? >> > Companies traditionally have processes, accountability, and all that > interesting stuff, which all take a little while to maneuver through to > make sure the right things happen in the right way with all the right > people participating. > > Given that the new deployment code wasn't started and developed in the > open, it means a lot of the decisions that may appear obvious from > outside have to be made explicitly and carry a non-trivial > implementation cost, for example in lawyer-time, or syncing between > OpenJDK 7 and Closed 6 - so there is a pretty good economic argument to > be made for finishing off the work on 6u10 first, and getting the new > deployment code out of 'beta', before a decision to push it into the > OpenJDK 7 tree can be made. > As was answered a couple days ago there isn't a specific plan at this time to open source either the new or old plugin/JWS. However it sure seems that the most expedient path is for the new plugin/JWS to be open sourced and not bother to open source the old plugin/JWS. It takes a tremendous amount of time and people resources to work through the open sourcing process. There are other 3rd party encumbrances used to build the ClosedJDK6/7 code. I don't have a precise list of them but if you had studied the binary plugs we shipped last year it should give you a hint or two about the nature of those 3rd party encumbrances. (graphics, fonts, sound, SNMP, ...) Among the consideration of 3rd party encumbrances is whether an open source equivalent is a) available, b) as good quality, c) has as small a footprint, d) executes as rapidly, e) has as few security holes, ... >> Is the latter true? I've never been able to grok where the JDK 7 >> stuff comes from. I'd have thought all work would be done out here in >> the opendjk community (after all, it's been *years* since Sun >> announced the project...) but... >> > The encumbered third party stuff will need to linger around for the life > time of Closed 6, and that implies some Sun repo where the maintenance > work on the encumbered stuff is done, and feeds into Closed 6 releases > containing it. > It's not just ClosedJDK6 which would continue having encumbered 3rd party code. Until there are encumbrance replacements which are as good as the encumbered code it will continue to appear to be "better" to use the encumbered code in the productized JDK build. >> I don't know about VisualVM, but the rest is free/open software. Why >> not just include those as well? >> http://visualvm.dev.java.net From geir at pobox.com Sat Sep 13 12:20:26 2008 From: geir at pobox.com (Geir Magnusson Jr.) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 15:20:26 -0400 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> Message-ID: <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> On Sep 13, 2008, at 11:18 AM, Dalibor Topic wrote: > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: >>> * they contain Sun's own proprietary code that has not been / >>> could not >>> be opened up so far >> >> Like what? And why can't it be opened up? > The old plugin, for example. One could go and invest money and time > into > readying it up for an open source release, but from an economic > perspective, given that the code has been rewritten for 6u10, it may > be > hard to justify spending resources to do the legal and technical > work on > liberating the old plugin, I think. Oh. That makes sense, assuming the re-written plugin is OSS. Is it? > >>> b) deployment code: >> >> Seriously though... why not just OSS it? > Companies traditionally have processes, accountability, and all that > interesting stuff, which all take a little while to maneuver through > to > make sure the right things happen in the right way with all the right > people participating. /me scratches head Believe it or not, I *am* familiar with companies, processes, accountability and "all that interesting stuff". You didn't really answer the question there... > > > Given that the new deployment code wasn't started and developed in the > open, it means a lot of the decisions that may appear obvious from > outside have to be made explicitly and carry a non-trivial > implementation cost, for example in lawyer-time, or syncing between > OpenJDK 7 and Closed 6 - so there is a pretty good economic argument > to > be made for finishing off the work on 6u10 first, and getting the new > deployment code out of 'beta', before a decision to push it into the > OpenJDK 7 tree can be made. I feel like I'm playing 3 card monty. So let me see if I have this right. you took the java 6 codebase, and put the VM out under GPL and the libraries out under GPL+Classpath. You seem to have shoved one version (which I'll call "JDK Next" since I don't really want to dignify the unitary decision to call it "JDK 7" since there is no JSR for Java 7) into hg, and another (version 6) you keep behind closed doors, emitting bundles of source every now and then. Then, is there also another complete tree for java 6 for the sun product release of j6? This seems nutty, companies, processes, accountability and "all that interesting stuff" notwithstanding. Why not do continuing maintenance of j6 in the open and push the code into the secret j6 repo and the JDK Next repo? I thought when java went open, you'd bring internal development of java at Sun out into the open. I could be you do this and I'm just missing it - but on the openjdk site page, I only see a link to mercurial for java Next (aka "7") > > >> Is the latter true? I've never been able to grok where the JDK 7 >> stuff comes from. I'd have thought all work would be done out here >> in >> the opendjk community (after all, it's been *years* since Sun >> announced the project...) but... > The encumbered third party stuff will need to linger around for the > life > time of Closed 6, and that implies some Sun repo where the maintenance > work on the encumbered stuff is done, and feeds into Closed 6 releases > containing it. Why not just keep the encumbered code in the closed repo, taking the rest from an open repo? you can do all sorts of fun and fancy tricks with svn and git for things like this. I'm guessing hg can do it as well. > > > The IcedTea repo serves as a nice staging ground for code heading for > OpenJDK, among other things, and takes some pressure off Sun's back to > get things right immediately all the time. As the FSF has found out > with > GNU Classpath, it's really useful to have a set of sister projects > that > can juggle different tasks - and IcedTea is doing a great job of > providing the playground for patches from GNU/Linux distributions. Why not just get people to bring changes directly to the project? And how do contributions happen? I know sun wants joint copyright of everything - is icedtea securing copyright for transfer to Sun? Doesn't this take the pressure off sun to build a community? > > >> I don't know about VisualVM, but the rest is free/open software. >> Why >> not just include those as well? > The focus of OpenJDK 6 so far has been to get it into a state where it > can be taken and successfully pass the compatibility tests as > unencumbered free software. So adding software that does not directly > aid that task wasn't particularly important - though given that they > are > all free software, including Visual VM, there is nothing preventing > others to do it. I see - thx. > >> So why not jettison the 3rd party code and focus the community around >> the open/free stuff? > That's what OpenJDK 6 has done, indeed. Ah, ok. I'll go try to build it and see. Thanks for the info. geir From geir at pobox.com Sat Sep 13 12:22:14 2008 From: geir at pobox.com (Geir Magnusson Jr.) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 15:22:14 -0400 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <48CC0825.1050801@sun.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> <48CC0825.1050801@sun.com> Message-ID: On Sep 13, 2008, at 2:36 PM, David Herron wrote: > Dalibor Topic wrote: >> >> Given that the new deployment code wasn't started and developed in >> the >> open, it means a lot of the decisions that may appear obvious from >> outside have to be made explicitly and carry a non-trivial >> implementation cost, for example in lawyer-time, or syncing between >> OpenJDK 7 and Closed 6 - so there is a pretty good economic >> argument to >> be made for finishing off the work on 6u10 first, and getting the new >> deployment code out of 'beta', before a decision to push it into the >> OpenJDK 7 tree can be made. >> > > As was answered a couple days ago there isn't a specific plan at > this time to open source either the new or old plugin/JWS. > > However it sure seems that the most expedient path is for the new > plugin/JWS to be open sourced and not bother to open source the old > plugin/JWS. It takes a tremendous amount of time and people > resources to work through the open sourcing process. I know.. i've been there :) But why did you do the new plugin behind closed doors in the first place? Seems like doing out in the community would have been the better route... geir From Dalibor.Topic at Sun.COM Sat Sep 13 13:21:12 2008 From: Dalibor.Topic at Sun.COM (Dalibor Topic) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:21:12 +0200 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> Message-ID: <48CC20B8.1050801@sun.com> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > Why not do continuing maintenance of j6 in the open and push the code > into the secret j6 repo and the JDK Next repo? Because OpenJDK 6 came after OpenJDK 7 which came after SE 6. OpenJDK 7 is where the development of 7 is happening, while OpenJDK 6 has been created to deliver a stable, certifiable implementation of SE 6 in collaboration with GNU/Linux distributions, as it makes a lot more sense for a distributor to ship a stable SE 6 API and implementation then one in heavy development, i.e. 7, and a lot of distributors have a strong preference for a fully free software implementation, i.e. OpenJDK 6 based ones. Yeah, it's a bit messier than one would expect, but it should become simpler over time. > Why not just get people to bring changes directly to the project? They do, too. One does not exclude the other. ;) > And how do contributions happen? On the lists. > I know sun wants joint copyright of everything - is icedtea securing > copyright for transfer to Sun? The patches going into OpenJDK are covered by SCA, yes. Not all patches need to go into OpenJDK, though, so IcedTea does not require the SCA for contributions. > Doesn't this take the pressure off sun to build a community? The OpenJDK community goes beyond a single organization or project. Naturally, Sun is contributing a lot to help grow OpenJDK, and so far seems to be doing it all a lot better then some would have expected initially. That's in large part due to the community OpenJDK attracted so far coming from a long tradition of successful, distributed open source development around independent projects like GNU Classpath - those developers don't have a habit of waiting for Sun to do one thing or another - as IcedTea shows, the community goes ahead and does things that it needs to be done, like pull up additional ports, or provide a plugin on amd64-linux, etc. I think it's been working out pretty good overall - instead of the team at Sun trying to build an open source Java SE community from scratch, it was courageous enough to try to mesh with the existing one instead, and that has paid off. There is still a ton of things to do, of course. There always is. cheers, dalibor topic -- ******************************************************************* Dalibor Topic Tel: (+49 40) 23 646 738 Java F/OSS Ambassador AIM: robiladonaim Sun Microsystems GmbH Mobile: (+49 177) 2664 192 Nagelsweg 55 http://openjdk.java.net D-20097 Hamburg mailto:Dalibor.Topic at sun.com Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sonnenallee 1, D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten Amtsgericht M?nchen: HRB 161028 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Thomas Schr?der, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland B?mer Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin H?ring From mark at klomp.org Sat Sep 13 13:32:46 2008 From: mark at klomp.org (Mark Wielaard) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:32:46 +0200 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> Message-ID: <1221337966.3323.56.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> Hi Geir, On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 15:20 -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > So let me see if I have this right. you took the java 6 codebase, and > put the VM out under GPL and the libraries out under GPL+Classpath. > You seem to have shoved one version (which I'll call "JDK Next" since > I don't really want to dignify the unitary decision to call it "JDK 7" > since there is no JSR for Java 7) into hg, and another (version 6) you > keep behind closed doors, emitting bundles of source every now and > then. Then, is there also another complete tree for java 6 for the > sun product release of j6? > > This seems nutty, companies, processes, accountability and "all that > interesting stuff" notwithstanding. Although I am sure some of the things being done are nutty (we all have our weird habits and we are all human after all) it seems you have indeed not been following the developments very well. What Sun has liberated is their jdk7 (Java the Next Generation) code base, or at least those parts they could. Then they realised that it would also be fun to have a fully free GPLed JDK6 implementation, so they did what Joe called "Forward to the Past", removing anything that wasn't in the JDK6 spec, but that was already in the JDK7: http://blogs.sun.com/darcy/entry/forward_to_the_past Joe has been working really hard on this all, and through IcedTea we have helped out by trying out various alternatives to some of the still encumbered code to make this happen. Some of those alternatives have now made it into Joe's tree. For some reason Joe hasn't yet found the time to put this all into a mercurial repository (remember when he started JDK7 wasn't in mercurial also). That does indeed seem like a painful way to work, but in the end there is only so much time in a day. In IcedTea we do put all our work directly into a mercurial repository. I do think that makes working together much more easier. We will get there with openjdk6 also I hope when Joe finds the time. Now Sun also has an old code base for JDK6, which is still completely proprietary and which they are still maintaining, it only partly shares code with the new OpenJDK work. So porting patches between the two isn't as easy since the code bases don't match up and that old code base isn't entirely encumbrance free. It does seem very painful to work in that way. And maybe you are right that Sun is making the wrong business decisions to keep that old legacy code base around in this form. It certainly isn't a very interesting code base for the community at large and you won't see a free GNU/Linux distro ship it. Sun isn't alone in all this though. And they sure do not do everything perfect yet. And yes, they sometimes do silly, weird things, apparently completely missing the whole opportunity they have. But what we do as community is help and guide Sun to do the right thing. If that means to ignore any silly proprietary stuff and as a community provide free alternatives to show how it is really done, then so be it. That is precisely what we do through IcedTea, integrate and provide Free Software alternatives for those parts where we think Sun is still missing the point. Together we will make this work. Cheers, Mark From geir at pobox.com Sat Sep 13 13:54:16 2008 From: geir at pobox.com (Geir Magnusson Jr.) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:54:16 -0400 Subject: IcedTea and integration of applet, webstart, javascript/rhino, visualvm, etc. In-Reply-To: <1221330972.3323.33.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <1221330972.3323.33.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> Message-ID: <887713DB-2891-4E75-92F6-EEBEA1BDA7C4@pobox.com> On Sep 13, 2008, at 2:36 PM, Mark Wielaard wrote: > Hi Geir, > > On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 10:02 -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: >> On Sep 13, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Dalibor Topic wrote: >>> Meanwhile, the IcedTea project augments the OpenJDK jdk6 project >>> with >>> independent implementations >>> of the plugin and webstart, called gcjwebplugin and netx. Those >>> independent implementations have a different >>> set of strengths and weaknesses from Sun's implementations: they >>> work on 64 bit Linux, for example, a platform >>> that hasn't been supported by Sun's own plugin yet. On the other >>> hand, >>> gcjwebplugin currently lacks an >>> adequate Java-JavaScript integration that's required by some applets >>> to execute as well as expected. >> >> Seems like Sun is using IcedTea as a kind of "shadow project"? I >> don't follow things closely anymore, but someone was asking me about >> this the other day and I couldn't really explain it clearly. I find >> the whole thing baffling. > > It really isn't that mysterious. It is just a couple of us guys and > girls having fun with hacking on and assembling some free software > stuff, mostly based around OpenJDK and for a large part consisting of > people who have also been involved with other free software java > projects for GNU/Linux like GNU Classpath, cacao, kaffe, gcj, etc. > There is nothing "shadowy" about it, just look at > http://icedtea.classpath.org/ Ha! I didn't mean "shadow" as in secret or sinister, but more like a "companion" that does the same thing. Do you give patches back to OpenJDK? How do you deal with the joint copyright thing? I looked at the site but didn't see anything. > > > In a way you can see it as an continuation of all the ideas which we > shared around GNU Classpath. Creating a large, enthusiastic bunch of > people, communities and companies working on all aspects of libre > java, > working together in harmony. Right - and that's great. As you know, I'm all for Harmony ;) I'm just wondering why all of those people don't do it at OpenJDK. > > >>> Sun's Java SE 6 download comes with a lot of (third party) software >>> bundled in, for example >>> Java DB, Rhino, Visual VM, etc. OpenJDK jdk 6 project leaves such >>> software out as much as possible, >>> concentrating on the necessities required for a compatible >>> implementation of Java SE 6. >> >> I don't know about VisualVM, but the rest is free/open software. >> Why >> not just include those as well? > > We do. IcedTea comes with applet plugins, based on gcjwebplugin and > Deepak is now extending the new IcedTeaPlugin with > LiveConnect/JavaScript support (./configure --enable-gcjwebplugin > or ./configure --enable-liveconnect). I recently added javax.script > javascript support through Rhino (./configure --with-rhino). And > Joshua > added VisualVM integration (./configure --enable-visualvm), although > that drags in a big piece of NetBeans (also under the GPL now), so we > are looking at how to package that easier/separately. I believe the > only > thing not integrated yet is JavaDB, but I don't really know any > programs > using that. If there actually are, we can certainly add that to the > mix. > > As extras IcedTea also comes with cacao integration as replacement for > hotspot on those platforms that hotspot hasn't been ported to > (./configure --with-cacao). And Zero as hotspot based interpreter > (./configure --enable-zero) and shark a jit backend for hotspot > still in > development (./configure --enable-shark). > >> So why not jettison the 3rd party code and focus the community around >> the open/free stuff? Seems like the thing to do if Java is free. > > That has been and always will be the goal. Sun (or any company really) > cannot do it all alone (maybe partly crippled by some of those > business > decisions you mention), and that is why we are here to help out > wherever > we can and provide us all with a completely free Java implementation, > integrated well, and as free as you would expect from anything bundled > with a GNU/Linux distro. That's great! I'm just curious why it couldn't have been done in the OpenJDK project. Thanks geir > > > Cheers, > > Mark > From geir at pobox.com Sat Sep 13 14:04:09 2008 From: geir at pobox.com (Geir Magnusson Jr.) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:04:09 -0400 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <48CC20B8.1050801@sun.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> <48CC20B8.1050801@sun.com> Message-ID: <867557BF-2DFE-4897-A841-86953D011474@pobox.com> On Sep 13, 2008, at 4:21 PM, Dalibor Topic wrote: > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: >> Why not do continuing maintenance of j6 in the open and push the code >> into the secret j6 repo and the JDK Next repo? > Because OpenJDK 6 came after OpenJDK 7 which came after SE 6. Remember that 3 card monty thing? :) How could .... oh, never mind. > > > OpenJDK 7 is where the development of 7 is happening, while OpenJDK 6 > has been created to deliver a stable, certifiable > implementation of SE 6 in collaboration with GNU/Linux > distributions, as > it makes a lot more sense for a distributor to ship > a stable SE 6 API and implementation then one in heavy development, > i.e. > 7, and a lot of distributors have a strong preference > for a fully free software implementation, i.e. OpenJDK 6 based ones. But "Java 7" was the Java 6 code, right? why would 6 come after 7? > > > Yeah, it's a bit messier than one would expect, but it should become > simpler over time. > >> Why not just get people to bring changes directly to the project? > They do, too. One does not exclude the other. ;) >> And how do contributions happen? > On the lists. iced-tea lists? > >> I know sun wants joint copyright of everything - is icedtea securing >> copyright for transfer to Sun? > The patches going into OpenJDK are covered by SCA, yes. Not all > patches > need to go into OpenJDK, though, > so IcedTea does not require the SCA for contributions. So what happens when something in IcedTea needs to go back into OpenJDK? Has that actually happened? > >> Doesn't this take the pressure off sun to build a community? > The OpenJDK community goes beyond a single organization or project. > Naturally, Sun is contributing a lot > to help grow OpenJDK, and so far seems to be doing it all a lot better > then some would have expected initially. > > That's in large part due to the community OpenJDK attracted so far > coming from a long tradition of successful, > distributed open source development around independent projects like > GNU > Classpath - those developers > don't have a habit of waiting for Sun to do one thing or another - as > IcedTea shows, the community goes > ahead and does things that it needs to be done, like pull up > additional > ports, or provide a plugin on > amd64-linux, etc. > But then if they're doing it "over there", how does that make them part of the community "over here"? I'm really not trying to be argumentative :) I'm just trying to grok what is real and what is "promotion". > I think it's been working out pretty good overall - instead of the > team > at Sun trying to build an > open source Java SE community from scratch, it was courageous enough > to > try to mesh with the > existing one instead, and that has paid off. Oh, come now :) They are meshing with part of the OSS Java SE community one one hand, and - forgive me for being blunt - using patent-based licensing restrictions to try to strangle (or, as MSFT would phrase it, "cut off the air supply" ) another. I'm glad it's paying off for you. Is there a certified, non-sun java se impl yet? geir From frans at meruvian.org Sat Sep 13 14:47:11 2008 From: frans at meruvian.org (Frans Thamura) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 04:47:11 +0700 Subject: IcedTea and integration of applet, webstart, javascript/rhino, visualvm, etc. In-Reply-To: <887713DB-2891-4E75-92F6-EEBEA1BDA7C4@pobox.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <1221330972.3323.33.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> <887713DB-2891-4E75-92F6-EEBEA1BDA7C4@pobox.com> Message-ID: <3a71add70809131447u1a9b96a3n685a5c43cec94003@mail.gmail.com> > Right - and that's great. As you know, I'm all for Harmony ;) > > I'm just wondering why all of those people don't do it at OpenJDK. > hi there, i trying to develop a team in Indonesia because i am incharge for JENI 2.0 program, the ASEAN OpenDistance Learning under www.seamolec.org and we are trying to develop a team that prove openjdk is 100% like Sun JDK and do publicity for the world the difference to make all Java people believe that the future of Java is brighter than ever. I am not C guy, because to much Java in last 8 years, and believe that C world is changing that i dont follow with. i believe there is "using" marketing inside Sun, about OpenSource, because the approach is differrent with current opensource movement esp in openess, i dont know is this related to control of Java..?? strange. more try to control, more lose control will get inside Sun. but of course I am using OpenJDK in my ubuntu box, which several missing thing i got, the font esp for Swing, and because i am new in this area, i am joining this mailing list and try to list a task to develop a team with our education network so we can prove that OpenJDK is good enought to be use as production and we can replace Sun Java SDK for our standard based curicullum. my foundation (meruvian), focus and dedicated for this movement, and i believe we can get around 15.000 students that can be push to research this stuff, remember we have 3.3 millions students and we target 10% to know Java is cool and bright stuff.. and we also work with Sun Indonesia.. please visit http://jeni.diknas.go.id but i am glad if people in this mailing list can share and make the list to do. if there is missing stuff inside OpenJDK, i am glad that IcedTea team try to fill the missing, so we can get 100% Sun Java SDK replacement i see that Harmony and IcedTea can become the push team to make OpenJDK as the baseline of Future Java Platform. I cannot wait Sun JDK = OpenJDK.. NB: how many people in the Java world know that Sun JDK plan to make OpenJDK as the platform just in rebranding mode. is there any reason From Dalibor.Topic at Sun.COM Sat Sep 13 15:02:07 2008 From: Dalibor.Topic at Sun.COM (Dalibor Topic) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 00:02:07 +0200 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <867557BF-2DFE-4897-A841-86953D011474@pobox.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> <48CC20B8.1050801@sun.com> <867557BF-2DFE-4897-A841-86953D011474@pobox.com> Message-ID: <48CC385F.1000004@sun.com> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > But "Java 7" was the Java 6 code, right? As far as I know, SE 6 was branched off some time before OpenJDK. > why would 6 come after 7? The necessary legal reviews, etc. have been done on the code trunk that is used going forward into 7, i.e. on OpenJDK. Not on the maintenance branch for SE 6. So accordingly, it only made sense to branch OpenJDK 6 from OpenJDK 7, instead of redoing all the work on opening up the SE 6 maintenance branch. > iced-tea lists? OpenJDK mailing lists. There are plenty of them, the IcedTea development takes place on distro-pkg-dev, and patches destined to go upstream head into specific project lists for review, and merge into OpenJDK repositories. > So what happens when something in IcedTea needs to go back into OpenJDK? It gets submitted to the corresponding project's mailing list for review (for example the build-dev mailing list for build patches), gets reviewed, and if the SCA isn't signed, the submitter signs the SCA and then the patch eventually goes in. > Has that actually happened? It happens regularly, yes, of course. Please see the release notes for OpenJDK 6 builds for details. > But then if they're doing it "over there", how does that make them > part of the community "over here"? IcedTea development mailing list is the OpenJDK mailing list distro-pkg-dev. The bugzilla and mercurial server used by IcedTea are not hosted by OpenJDK though, they have been created before OpenJDK had corresponding infrastructure in place (and the bugzilla instance is not there yet, for example). A lot of IcedTea development also makes its way into the upstream OpenJDK 6 builds, so it goes out on corresponding OpenJDK project mailing lists. I know this sounds very confusing to people used to drawing gates around communities - the squishy concept of a community of communities around a shared backbone is something that OpenJDK has adopted from GNU Classpath, where it has worked really nicely to enable permeable development. > Is there a certified, non-sun java se impl yet? The Fedora 9 binaries on x86 and amd64 have passed the SE 6 TCK. Sun doesn't control what goes into those binaries, the Fedora community does, and obviously does it quite successfully. cheers, dalibor topic -- ******************************************************************* Dalibor Topic Tel: (+49 40) 23 646 738 Java F/OSS Ambassador AIM: robiladonaim Sun Microsystems GmbH Mobile: (+49 177) 2664 192 Nagelsweg 55 http://openjdk.java.net D-20097 Hamburg mailto:Dalibor.Topic at sun.com Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sonnenallee 1, D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten Amtsgericht M?nchen: HRB 161028 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Thomas Schr?der, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland B?mer Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin H?ring From Dalibor.Topic at Sun.COM Sat Sep 13 15:43:14 2008 From: Dalibor.Topic at Sun.COM (Dalibor Topic) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 00:43:14 +0200 Subject: IcedTea and integration of applet, webstart, javascript/rhino, visualvm, etc. In-Reply-To: <3a71add70809131447u1a9b96a3n685a5c43cec94003@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <1221330972.3323.33.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> <887713DB-2891-4E75-92F6-EEBEA1BDA7C4@pobox.com> <3a71add70809131447u1a9b96a3n685a5c43cec94003@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48CC4202.90708@sun.com> Frans Thamura wrote: > and we are trying to develop a team that prove openjdk is 100% like > Sun JDK and do publicity for the world the difference to make all Java > people believe that the future of Java is brighter than ever. > If 'like' is supposed to mean that there are OpenJDK 6 builds that are fully compatible with Sun's JDK 6, then that's easy - Fedora 9 is shipping OpenJDK 6 on x86 and amd64 right now that have passed through the certification process. > but of course I am using OpenJDK in my ubuntu box, which several > missing thing i got, the font esp for Swing, and because i am new in > this area, i am joining this mailing list and try to list a task to > develop a team with our education network so we can prove that OpenJDK > is good enought to be use as production and we can replace Sun Java > SDK for our standard based curicullum. > That sounds like you're interested in helping out with QA on OpenJDK - the right mailing list for that is quality-discuss. cheers, dalibor topic -- ******************************************************************* Dalibor Topic Tel: (+49 40) 23 646 738 Java F/OSS Ambassador AIM: robiladonaim Sun Microsystems GmbH Mobile: (+49 177) 2664 192 Nagelsweg 55 http://openjdk.java.net D-20097 Hamburg mailto:Dalibor.Topic at sun.com Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sonnenallee 1, D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten Amtsgericht M?nchen: HRB 161028 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Thomas Schr?der, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland B?mer Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin H?ring From David.Herron at Sun.COM Sat Sep 13 16:06:09 2008 From: David.Herron at Sun.COM (David Herron) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:06:09 -0700 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> Message-ID: <48CC4761.8030308@sun.com> Geir, these are really good questions .. Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: >> Given that the new deployment code wasn't started and developed in the >> open, it means a lot of the decisions that may appear obvious from >> outside have to be made explicitly and carry a non-trivial >> implementation cost, for example in lawyer-time, or syncing between >> OpenJDK 7 and Closed 6 - so there is a pretty good economic argument to >> be made for finishing off the work on 6u10 first, and getting the new >> deployment code out of 'beta', before a decision to push it into the >> OpenJDK 7 tree can be made. > > I feel like I'm playing 3 card monty. > > So let me see if I have this right. you took the java 6 codebase, and > put the VM out under GPL and the libraries out under GPL+Classpath. > You seem to have shoved one version (which I'll call "JDK Next" since > I don't really want to dignify the unitary decision to call it "JDK 7" > since there is no JSR for Java 7) into hg, and another (version 6) you > keep behind closed doors, emitting bundles of source every now and > then. Then, is there also another complete tree for java 6 for the > sun product release of j6? > > This seems nutty, companies, processes, accountability and "all that > interesting stuff" notwithstanding. > > Why not do continuing maintenance of j6 in the open and push the code > into the secret j6 repo and the JDK Next repo? I thought when java > went open, you'd bring internal development of java at Sun out into > the open. > > I could be you do this and I'm just missing it - but on the openjdk > site page, I only see a link to mercurial for java Next (aka "7") We are in a nutty intermediate stage. The initial openjdk releases (as I recall, you were there) were for the oh-heck-let's-call-it-java-7 release ;-) ... and then later business decisions led us to do major work in the Java 6u release train (for various values of 'i'), more work than we'd normally do update releases. Given that there was a desire/need for a Java6 compatible OpenJDK the question would be.. how to get there? There were several options and the one we chose was to reuse the already opened source tree and, as Joe termed it, make reverse progress into the future. That is, to derive a Java6 compatible tree from the oh-heck-let's-call-it-java-7 tree and if it were to pass JCK6a (now JCK6b) then it's good to go. Another little detail was the timing of mercurial repositories. The mercurial switchover did not happen until IIRC openjdk7b23 however the reverse progress openjdk6 plan was a fork of openjdk7b20 which means openjdk6 was not in mercurial. There used to be a tarball release for the oh-heck-let's-call-it-java-7 tree but in b23 we made the mercurial switch. In fact the page for the tarballs is still there, and it's updated with the latest drop. While it does have a tarball the primary purpose for that page is the binary plugs.. http://download.java.net/openjdk/jdk7/ > Why not just keep the encumbered code in the closed repo, taking the > rest from an open repo? you can do all sorts of fun and fancy tricks > with svn and git for things like this. I'm guessing hg can do it as > well. This is actually very close to what we do for the oh-heck-let's-call-it-java-7 release ;-) There's the openjdk7 repository and inside the firewall a closedjdk7 repository. The closedjdk7 repository is just the encumbered bits. Where the repository paths on hg.openjdk.java.net are: jdk7/jdk7/{comp} On closedjdk.sfbay.sun.com the repository paths are: jdk7/jdk7/{comp}/{make,src,test}/closed Further some components do not have closed counterparts, it appears only the hotspot and jdk components have closed counterparts. You can see that if you have an openjdk7 source tree and then drop on top of it the closedjdk7 code it will fall into "closed" directories without touching the openjdk7 part. If you have a checked out openjdk7 repository this command should be instructive:- $ find jdk7 -type f \( -name Makefile -o -name '*.gmk' -o -name '*.defs' \) -print | xargs grep closed - David Herron From mark at klomp.org Sat Sep 13 17:00:11 2008 From: mark at klomp.org (Mark Wielaard) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 02:00:11 +0200 Subject: IcedTea and integration of applet, webstart, javascript/rhino, visualvm, etc. In-Reply-To: <887713DB-2891-4E75-92F6-EEBEA1BDA7C4@pobox.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <1221330972.3323.33.camel@dijkstra.wildebeest.org> <887713DB-2891-4E75-92F6-EEBEA1BDA7C4@pobox.com> Message-ID: <1221350411.22691.18.camel@hermans.wildebeest.org> Hi Geir, On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 16:54 -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > Do you give patches back to OpenJDK? How do you deal with the joint > copyright thing? I looked at the site but didn't see anything. We encourage people to submit patches also to the various upstream projects we use to keep divergence to a minimum when possible. IcedTea itself doesn't have any joint copyright thing. > That's great! I'm just curious why it couldn't have been done in the > OpenJDK project. I think you can see IcedTea as a sister project of OpenJDK that shares most of the code and goals, whether that means it is in or out I'll leave to the philosophers, but it seems to me to be no more out than, say, Sun's ClosedJDK. It is just another repository and group of people most of which have some overlap with other projects and repositories. They are just a little obsessed with this Freedom thingy, GNU/Linux distros, integration with existing libre java communities and providing a complete user experience out of the box. Most of the current structure just grew organically and comes from historical accidents. There were mailinglists at openjdk.java.net from the start, so that is where the discussions are. There wasn't a mercurial repo setup yet, so we asked Jim if we could get a machine and set one up, there still isn't an open bug database, so we have a bugzilla instance now, etc. Slowly some of these things are merging, for others the current setup is just convenient now for people to work in so we keep them as it is. Cheers, Mark From gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org Sat Sep 13 18:14:36 2008 From: gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org (Andrew John Hughes) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 02:14:36 +0100 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <48CC385F.1000004@sun.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> <48CC20B8.1050801@sun.com> <867557BF-2DFE-4897-A841-86953D011474@pobox.com> <48CC385F.1000004@sun.com> Message-ID: <17c6771e0809131814s6b574cb0n8725a859bdfe4885@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/13 Dalibor Topic : ... >> So what happens when something in IcedTea needs to go back into OpenJDK? > It gets submitted to the corresponding project's mailing list for review > (for example the build-dev mailing list for build patches), > gets reviewed, and if the SCA isn't signed, the submitter signs the SCA > and then the patch eventually goes in. >> Has that actually happened? > It happens regularly, yes, of course. Please see the release notes for > OpenJDK 6 builds for details. For minor bug fixes, yes. Not for anything really substantial, and what has gone through has been slow. IcedTea still has 80 odd patches, though not all of them would be candidates for upstream. Things are even worse with the OpenJDK tree (that's the will-be-maybe-sometime-never-jdk7 tree). The recent establishment of an 'OpenJDK infrastructure' has meant that some autonomous projects and code trees have appeared with Sun hosting mainly from the challenge process e.g. caciocavallo, (Roman and Mario's AWT work) and closures, but also the BSD port. Again, these are based on the '7' tree. There is still no OpenJDK6 tree. >> But then if they're doing it "over there", how does that make them >> part of the community "over here"? > IcedTea development mailing list is the OpenJDK mailing list > distro-pkg-dev. The bugzilla and mercurial server > used by IcedTea are not hosted by OpenJDK though, they have been created > before OpenJDK had corresponding > infrastructure in place (and the bugzilla instance is not there yet, for > example). A lot of IcedTea development also > makes its way into the upstream OpenJDK 6 builds, so it goes out on > corresponding OpenJDK project mailing lists. > I think that's pushing things a little in the name of making the point. Sun and the IcedTea community still seem very separate and distinct to me, even if we happen to have a mailing list hosted as part of openjdk.java.net. The patches seem to have largely been handled as individual contributions, not as from the IcedTea projects. Joe's work on OpenJDK6 is an exception to this rule, and I praise his solo work on this tree and his explicit referencing of IcedTea patches. But clearly Sun's commitment to OpenJDK6, the version used as the base for every distro version, only runs to one employee as far as we can see. > I know this sounds very confusing to people used to drawing gates around > communities - the squishy concept > of a community of communities around a shared backbone is something that > OpenJDK has adopted from GNU > Classpath, where it has worked really nicely to enable permeable > development. I'm sorry, I don't see this 'community of communities', except in the form of the existing GNU Classpath community, who are slowly becoming the IcedTea community too. Sun haven't integrated into this to any great extent; there is little discussion of work being done, just big blobs of code being dropped every so often and lots of commits with no rationale for them. Sun need to open their processes more if they are going to become part of the community. There have been promises of this, but I've seen very little change since JavaOne. There is still no bug database for example. The most code development apparently seems to be still going on in a proprietary code base, making all this 'everything will be free from now on' mantra meaningless. I think what IcedTea proves is that the community will carry on, regardless of what Sun does. That's why it has an independent bug database, independent repositories, etc. These things are needed, Sun have failed to produce them and so the community has done their own thing. The same goes for the plugin. To me, the Sun involvement has felt like arbitrary blobs of code we have to merge in to IcedTea for quite a while now, and don't think you can call that community development. At this rate, the only difference with the development of OpenJDK over the proprietary codebases will be that we can see every minutae, every changeset going in. However, we won't have been involved in its development, just in making it fit for human consumption. It is solely up to Sun when and how they choose to fix this; the community will carry on regardless. >> Is there a certified, non-sun java se impl yet? > The Fedora 9 binaries on x86 and amd64 have passed the SE 6 TCK. > Sun doesn't control what goes into those binaries, the Fedora community > does, > and obviously does it quite successfully. > I don't think that's what Geir meant; he just didn't word his question correctly. The TCK license terms specifically require that the binaries are 'substantially derived' from OpenJDK so Harmony+DRLVM or GNU Classpath+something like CACAO, JamVM, GCJ or Kaffe (remember that?) can not meet these terms. I don't think this is a technical requirement, but a business one as we've already said. And fortunately there is a hacky way of getting at least something close to what we want until Sun choose to sort this out properly; certify HotSpot + another class library (GNU Classpath or Harmony), and certify the OpenJDK class library + VM (CACAO is already someway along this road). It's by no means a perfect or working solution, but it means most of the technical fixes could be made before a true integration is made possible. > cheers, > dalibor topic > > -- > ******************************************************************* > Dalibor Topic Tel: (+49 40) 23 646 738 > Java F/OSS Ambassador AIM: robiladonaim > Sun Microsystems GmbH Mobile: (+49 177) 2664 192 > Nagelsweg 55 http://openjdk.java.net > D-20097 Hamburg mailto:Dalibor.Topic at sun.com > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sonnenallee 1, D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten > Amtsgericht M?nchen: HRB 161028 > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Thomas Schr?der, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland B?mer > Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin H?ring > > > Sorry if this sounds a little bitter - I'm not. I'm just losing patience and tired of Sun's empty promises. Cheers, -- Andrew :-) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://openjdk.java.net PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8 From Jonathan.Gibbons at Sun.COM Sat Sep 13 18:41:36 2008 From: Jonathan.Gibbons at Sun.COM (Jonathan Gibbons) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:41:36 -0700 Subject: Sun JDK vs OpenJDK - Sun JRE vs OpenJDK JRE In-Reply-To: <17c6771e0809131814s6b574cb0n8725a859bdfe4885@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a71add70809121716n52dcc01l292b4b5e8f59e458@mail.gmail.com> <48CBC3BF.4060001@sun.com> <94C93B88-1763-49D6-ABF9-CBCC75FB101D@pobox.com> <48CBD9C8.2060604@kaffe.org> <18E078D5-BAC3-4591-96A8-334D6E24B31B@pobox.com> <48CC20B8.1050801@sun.com> <867557BF-2DFE-4897-A841-86953D011474@pobox.com> <48CC385F.1000004@sun.com> <17c6771e0809131814s6b574cb0n8725a859bdfe4885@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 13, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Andrew John Hughes wrote: > .... But clearly Sun's commitment to OpenJDK6, the version > used as the base for every distro version, only runs to one employee > as far as we can see. Not to diminish Joe's efforts in any way, but he is calling on more of us behind the scenes, to help make things happen :-) -- Jon From cowwoc at bbs.darktech.org Mon Sep 15 08:33:41 2008 From: cowwoc at bbs.darktech.org (cowwoc) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Upcoming OpenJDK infrastructure projects Message-ID: <19480766.post@talk.nabble.com> Hi Dan, I will happily help you guys out if you run into any problems getting Manifests working with OpenJDK. While we're on the topic, why is Sun jumping to VisualStudio 2005 Express when the 2008 is out? As far as I know, there are no new surprises in 2008 like the manifests and 64-bit support is far better than in 2005. I recommend you skip 2005 and jump directly to the 2008 version. Gili dfabulich wrote: > > > I'm not sure if this request is in-scope for "OpenJDK infrastructure > projects", but I'd like to pipe up in favor of simplifying the > Windows build experience. > > Specifically... > > 1) Update the build to work with Visual C++ 2005 Express, the free > (no-charge) version of the Visual Studio C++ compiler. > > The fix isn't too hard, but it requires a bit of figuring: > http://bugs.sun.com/view_bug.do?bug_id=6523947 > > 2) Provide support for building under MSYS make/shell, perhaps instead of > Cygwin. > > Cygwin make doesn't handle paths of the form "c:/code/openjdk" and has > stated that they intend not to; they recommend using the MinGW MSYS make > instead of Cygwin make for these purposes. > > http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/2006-07/msg00671.html > > The Mozilla project updated their Cygwin-only build to work under MSYS, > and now offer a convenient installer to set the whole thing up. > Something like that for OpenJDK would be fantastic, though it's just a > dream at this point. :-) > > http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Windows_Build_Prerequisites > > (Note that I DON'T mean that we should support building with MinGW gcc; > that'd be cool, but IMO it's not necessary to build Windows software using > a Free-as-in-speech compiler; using a free-as-in-beer compiler is fine for > non-free platforms.) > > I'd hoped to begin work on these myself at some point, though I'm pretty > busy yet. :-( > > -Dan > > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Upcoming-OpenJDK-infrastructure-projects-tp13615443p19480766.html Sent from the OpenJDK General discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. From Phil.Race at Sun.COM Mon Sep 15 09:55:17 2008 From: Phil.Race at Sun.COM (Phil Race) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:55:17 -0700 Subject: Upcoming OpenJDK infrastructure projects In-Reply-To: <19480766.post@talk.nabble.com> References: <19480766.post@talk.nabble.com> Message-ID: <48CE9375.5080202@sun.com> cowwoc wrote: > Hi Dan, > > I will happily help you guys out if you run into any problems getting > Manifests working with OpenJDK. While we're on the topic, why is Sun jumping > to VisualStudio 2005 Express when the 2008 is out? As far as I know, there > are no new surprises in 2008 like the manifests and 64-bit support is far > better than in 2005. I recommend you skip 2005 and jump directly to the 2008 > version. > You are responding to a thread concluded in 2007(!), so you are way out of date. Dan's comment wasn't the plan anyway. The plan is to move to VS 2008, and skip 2005. -phil. From cowwoc at bbs.darktech.org Mon Sep 15 13:56:00 2008 From: cowwoc at bbs.darktech.org (cowwoc) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Upcoming OpenJDK infrastructure projects In-Reply-To: <48CE9375.5080202@sun.com> References: <20071106203633.27F1766B3@eggemoggin.niobe.net> <19480766.post@talk.nabble.com> <48CE9375.5080202@sun.com> Message-ID: <19500968.post@talk.nabble.com> Sounds good, thanks. Gili Phil Race wrote: > > cowwoc wrote: >> Hi Dan, >> >> I will happily help you guys out if you run into any problems getting >> Manifests working with OpenJDK. While we're on the topic, why is Sun >> jumping >> to VisualStudio 2005 Express when the 2008 is out? As far as I know, >> there >> are no new surprises in 2008 like the manifests and 64-bit support is far >> better than in 2005. I recommend you skip 2005 and jump directly to the >> 2008 >> version. >> > > You are responding to a thread concluded in 2007(!), so you are way out > of date. > Dan's comment wasn't the plan anyway. The plan is to move to VS 2008, > and skip 2005. > > -phil. > > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Upcoming-OpenJDK-infrastructure-projects-tp13615443p19500968.html Sent from the OpenJDK General discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. From linuxhippy at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 08:34:26 2008 From: linuxhippy at gmail.com (Clemens Eisserer) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:34:26 +0200 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <48C9EC4E.3000400@sun.com> References: <48C9EC4E.3000400@sun.com> Message-ID: <194f62550809250834j7f2139bwd8e0a96546ebea48@mail.gmail.com> Just because of interest, any idea why there were no hotspot related fixes in the changelog for some time? Haven't there been any, or did they somehow got lost because of structural changes? Thanks, Clemens 2008/9/12 Xiomara Jayasena : > > The OpenJDK source is available at: > http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7 > http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7/rev/143c1abedb7d > > The OpenJDK source binary plugs for the promoted JDK 7 build 35 are > available under the openjdk http://openjdk.java.net website under Source > Code (direct link to bundles: http://download.java.net/openjdk/jdk7) > > Summary of changes: > http://download.java.net/jdk7/changes/jdk7-b35.html > > > -Xiomara > > > > From Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM Thu Sep 25 12:22:38 2008 From: Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM (Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:22:38 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <194f62550809250834j7f2139bwd8e0a96546ebea48@mail.gmail.com> References: <48C9EC4E.3000400@sun.com> <194f62550809250834j7f2139bwd8e0a96546ebea48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48DBE4FE.8010302@Sun.COM> Thank you for your interest! Are you referring to the summary of changes here? http://download.java.net/jdk7/changes/jdk7-b35.html If so, apologies for the hotspot changes not being there. Our hotspot team has been having difficulty updating the changes since they are using a new model. They have promised that they will do better in ensuring their changes show up in the summary of changes, for future builds. Changes can also be tracked by going to the master repositories URL here: http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7 or after you have done an hg clone use hg log -v to see the changes. HTH, -Xiomara Clemens Eisserer wrote: > Just because of interest, any idea why there were no hotspot related > fixes in the changelog for some time? > Haven't there been any, or did they somehow got lost because of > structural changes? > > Thanks, Clemens > > 2008/9/12 Xiomara Jayasena : > >> The OpenJDK source is available at: >> http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7 >> http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7/rev/143c1abedb7d >> >> The OpenJDK source binary plugs for the promoted JDK 7 build 35 are >> available under the openjdk http://openjdk.java.net website under Source >> Code (direct link to bundles: http://download.java.net/openjdk/jdk7) >> >> Summary of changes: >> http://download.java.net/jdk7/changes/jdk7-b35.html >> >> >> -Xiomara >> >> >> >> >> From gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org Thu Sep 25 13:40:15 2008 From: gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org (Andrew John Hughes) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:40:15 +0100 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <48DBE4FE.8010302@Sun.COM> References: <48C9EC4E.3000400@sun.com> <194f62550809250834j7f2139bwd8e0a96546ebea48@mail.gmail.com> <48DBE4FE.8010302@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <20080925204015.GC27651@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> On 12:22 Thu 25 Sep , Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM wrote: > > Thank you for your interest! > > Are you referring to the summary of changes here? > http://download.java.net/jdk7/changes/jdk7-b35.html > > If so, apologies for the hotspot changes not being there. Our hotspot team > has been having difficulty updating the changes since they are using a new > model. They have promised that they will do better in ensuring their > changes show up in the summary of changes, for future builds. > > Changes can also be tracked by going to the master repositories URL here: > > http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7 > > or after you have done an hg clone use hg log -v to see the changes. > > HTH, > -Xiomara > > > Clemens Eisserer wrote: >> Just because of interest, any idea why there were no hotspot related >> fixes in the changelog for some time? >> Haven't there been any, or did they somehow got lost because of >> structural changes? >> >> Thanks, Clemens >> >> 2008/9/12 Xiomara Jayasena : >> >>> The OpenJDK source is available at: >>> http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7 >>> http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7/rev/143c1abedb7d >>> >>> The OpenJDK source binary plugs for the promoted JDK 7 build 35 are >>> available under the openjdk http://openjdk.java.net website under Source >>> Code (direct link to bundles: http://download.java.net/openjdk/jdk7) >>> >>> Summary of changes: >>> http://download.java.net/jdk7/changes/jdk7-b35.html >>> >>> >>> -Xiomara >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > Either b34 or b35 had an entire new HotSpot tool in, OSQL IIRC, which meant we had to change the IcedTea build slightly because it uses javax.script. These lists still aren't complete, and it's a real pity, especially when trying to integrate these in IcedTea. I find out what's in the build in reality by surprise, when a build failure hits me right between the eyes. And BTW, posting to a two week old post made me think b36 was here... :P -- Andrew :) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://openjdk.java.net PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint = F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8 From mr at sun.com Thu Sep 25 14:35:00 2008 From: mr at sun.com (Mark Reinhold) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:35:00 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: gnu_andrew@member.fsf.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:40:15 BST; <20080925204015.GC27651@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> Message-ID: <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:40:15 +0100 > From: Andrew John Hughes > ... > > These lists still aren't complete, and it's a real pity, especially > when trying to integrate these in IcedTea. I find out what's in the > build in reality by surprise, when a build failure hits me right between > the eyes. The lists aren't complete, and we'll fix that, but in the meantime the authoritative information is in hg, as Xiomara points out. Hmm ... That suggests that perhaps we should be generating the change summaries from hg instead of from the bug database. Xiomara, is that something that could be arranged? - Mark From Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM Thu Sep 25 14:48:24 2008 From: Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM (Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:48:24 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> References: <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> Message-ID: <48DC0728.9030909@Sun.COM> Mark Reinhold wrote: >> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:40:15 +0100 >> From: Andrew John Hughes >> > > >> ... >> >> These lists still aren't complete, and it's a real pity, especially >> when trying to integrate these in IcedTea. I find out what's in the >> build in reality by surprise, when a build failure hits me right between >> the eyes. >> > > The lists aren't complete, and we'll fix that, but in the meantime the > authoritative information is in hg, as Xiomara points out. > > Hmm ... That suggests that perhaps we should be generating the change > summaries from hg instead of from the bug database. Xiomara, is that > something that could be arranged? > Possibly, I'll investigate. -Xiomara > - Mark > From Jonathan.Gibbons at Sun.COM Thu Sep 25 14:53:32 2008 From: Jonathan.Gibbons at Sun.COM (Jonathan Gibbons) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:53:32 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> References: <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> Message-ID: <48DC085C.6090107@sun.com> Mark Reinhold wrote: > Hmm ... That suggests that perhaps we should be generating the change > summaries from hg instead of from the bug database. Xiomara, is that > something that could be arranged? > > - Mark > > Perhaps we should (also?) be checking the info in hg against the info in the bug database. -- Jon From Kelly.Ohair at Sun.COM Thu Sep 25 15:15:09 2008 From: Kelly.Ohair at Sun.COM (Kelly O'Hair) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:15:09 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <48DC0728.9030909@Sun.COM> References: <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> <48DC0728.9030909@Sun.COM> Message-ID: <48DC0D6D.7020104@sun.com> Per repository, something like: hg log --no-merges --rev jdk7-b33 --rev jdk7-b34 --template '{desc}\n' | egrep '^[0-9][0-9]*:' Would work. The "--rev jdk7-b34" could be "--rev tip" if the tag doesn't exist yet. -kto Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM wrote: > Mark Reinhold wrote: >>> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:40:15 +0100 >>> From: Andrew John Hughes >>> >> >> >>> ... >>> >>> These lists still aren't complete, and it's a real pity, especially >>> when trying to integrate these in IcedTea. I find out what's in the >>> build in reality by surprise, when a build failure hits me right between >>> the eyes. >>> >> >> The lists aren't complete, and we'll fix that, but in the meantime the >> authoritative information is in hg, as Xiomara points out. >> >> Hmm ... That suggests that perhaps we should be generating the change >> summaries from hg instead of from the bug database. Xiomara, is that >> something that could be arranged? >> > > Possibly, I'll investigate. > > -Xiomara > >> - Mark >> > From Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM Thu Sep 25 15:26:09 2008 From: Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM (Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:26:09 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <48DC0D6D.7020104@sun.com> References: <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> <48DC0728.9030909@Sun.COM> <48DC0D6D.7020104@sun.com> Message-ID: <48DC1001.7070504@Sun.COM> Thanks Kelly. I also had something along this line: hg log -r ${lasttag}:tip | grep ^summary: | grep -v Merge which will give raw CRs and their description. Realistically what we would want is something that still links back to the bug database for each CR like the current Summary of Changes. -Xiomara Kelly O'Hair wrote: > > Per repository, something like: > > hg log --no-merges --rev jdk7-b33 --rev jdk7-b34 --template > '{desc}\n' | egrep '^[0-9][0-9]*:' > > Would work. > > The "--rev jdk7-b34" could be "--rev tip" if the tag doesn't exist yet. > > -kto > > > Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM wrote: >> Mark Reinhold wrote: >>>> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:40:15 +0100 >>>> From: Andrew John Hughes >>>> >>> >>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> These lists still aren't complete, and it's a real pity, especially >>>> when trying to integrate these in IcedTea. I find out what's in the >>>> build in reality by surprise, when a build failure hits me right >>>> between >>>> the eyes. >>>> >>> >>> The lists aren't complete, and we'll fix that, but in the meantime the >>> authoritative information is in hg, as Xiomara points out. >>> >>> Hmm ... That suggests that perhaps we should be generating the change >>> summaries from hg instead of from the bug database. Xiomara, is that >>> something that could be arranged? >>> >> >> Possibly, I'll investigate. >> >> -Xiomara >> >>> - Mark >>> >> From Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM Thu Sep 25 16:59:21 2008 From: Xiomara.Jayasena at Sun.COM (Xiomara Jayasena) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:59:21 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 36 is available at the openjdk.java.net website Message-ID: <48DC25D9.2000501@sun.com> The OpenJDK source is available at: http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7 http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7/rev/4b4f5fea8d7d The OpenJDK source binary plugs for the promoted JDK 7 build 36 are available under the openjdk http://openjdk.java.net website under Source Code (direct link to bundles: http://download.java.net/openjdk/jdk7) Summary of changes: http://download.java.net/jdk7/changes/jdk7-b36.html -Xiomara From gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org Fri Sep 26 12:25:34 2008 From: gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org (Andrew John Hughes) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:25:34 +0100 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> References: <20080925204015.GC27651@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> Message-ID: <20080926192534.GB21825@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> On 14:35 Thu 25 Sep , Mark Reinhold wrote: > > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:40:15 +0100 > > From: Andrew John Hughes > > > ... > > > > These lists still aren't complete, and it's a real pity, especially > > when trying to integrate these in IcedTea. I find out what's in the > > build in reality by surprise, when a build failure hits me right between > > the eyes. > > The lists aren't complete, and we'll fix that, but in the meantime the > authoritative information is in hg, as Xiomara points out. > > Hmm ... That suggests that perhaps we should be generating the change > summaries from hg instead of from the bug database. Xiomara, is that > something that could be arranged? > > - Mark It may be in hg, but downloading the entire forest with hg and then going through all the logs and diffs is probably as much work as just building it would be anyway :) -- Andrew :) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://openjdk.java.net PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint = F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8 From Kelly.Ohair at Sun.COM Sat Sep 27 12:44:38 2008 From: Kelly.Ohair at Sun.COM (Kelly O'Hair) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:44:38 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <20080926192534.GB21825@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> References: <20080925204015.GC27651@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> <20080926192534.GB21825@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> Message-ID: <48DE8D26.9070401@sun.com> Andrew John Hughes wrote: > On 14:35 Thu 25 Sep , Mark Reinhold wrote: >>> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:40:15 +0100 >>> From: Andrew John Hughes >>> ... >>> >>> These lists still aren't complete, and it's a real pity, especially >>> when trying to integrate these in IcedTea. I find out what's in the >>> build in reality by surprise, when a build failure hits me right between >>> the eyes. >> The lists aren't complete, and we'll fix that, but in the meantime the >> authoritative information is in hg, as Xiomara points out. >> >> Hmm ... That suggests that perhaps we should be generating the change >> summaries from hg instead of from the bug database. Xiomara, is that >> something that could be arranged? >> >> - Mark > > It may be in hg, but downloading the entire forest with hg and then going > through all the logs and diffs is probably as much work as just building it > would be anyway :) I had a dream that someday, this kind of information could just be generated dynamically, by clicking on a link from the http:// repository pages. All based on the repository data on the servers. But alas, it was just a dream. :^( -kto From neugens at limasoftware.net Sat Sep 27 13:05:20 2008 From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 22:05:20 +0200 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <48DE8D26.9070401@sun.com> References: <20080925204015.GC27651@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> <20080926192534.GB21825@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <48DE8D26.9070401@sun.com> Message-ID: <1222545920.3031.5.camel@nirvana> Il giorno sab, 27/09/2008 alle 12.44 -0700, Kelly O'Hair ha scritto: > > I had a dream that someday, this kind of information could just be generated > dynamically, by clicking on a link from the http:// repository pages. > All based on the repository data on the servers. > But alas, it was just a dream. :^( How we can help on this? Maybe just an extension to hg that you can trigger somehow? I don't think it's so difficult, if it's a matter of human resources, we can surely do our part. Cheers, Mario From Kelly.Ohair at Sun.COM Sat Sep 27 13:17:35 2008 From: Kelly.Ohair at Sun.COM (Kelly O'Hair) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 13:17:35 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <1222545920.3031.5.camel@nirvana> References: <20080925204015.GC27651@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> <20080926192534.GB21825@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <48DE8D26.9070401@sun.com> <1222545920.3031.5.camel@nirvana> Message-ID: <48DE94DF.2090806@sun.com> Mario Torre wrote: > Il giorno sab, 27/09/2008 alle 12.44 -0700, Kelly O'Hair ha scritto: > >> I had a dream that someday, this kind of information could just be generated >> dynamically, by clicking on a link from the http:// repository pages. >> All based on the repository data on the servers. >> But alas, it was just a dream. :^( > > How we can help on this? > > Maybe just an extension to hg that you can trigger somehow? I don't > think it's so difficult, if it's a matter of human resources, we can > surely do our part. > I'm a Mercurial user, not really well versed in writing Python or setting up the server, yet. Mark Reinhold might be better at answering this. -kto > Cheers, > Mario > From walters at verbum.org Sat Sep 27 14:46:38 2008 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:46:38 -0400 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <48DE8D26.9070401@sun.com> References: <20080925204015.GC27651@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> <20080926192534.GB21825@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <48DE8D26.9070401@sun.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Kelly O'Hair wrote: > > I had a dream that someday, this kind of information could just be generated > dynamically, by clicking on a link from the http:// repository pages. > All based on the repository data on the servers. > But alas, it was just a dream. :^( The dynamic generation is useful, but personally I would find a short English paragraph or two overview of changes to be more useful. Look at how Linus does a brief overview of Linux kernel releases, to pull some random examples out of my Firefox history: http://lwn.net/Articles/293784/ http://lwn.net/Articles/299639/ From neugens at limasoftware.net Sat Sep 27 15:18:49 2008 From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 00:18:49 +0200 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: References: <20080925204015.GC27651@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> <20080926192534.GB21825@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <48DE8D26.9070401@sun.com> Message-ID: <1222553929.3031.21.camel@nirvana> Il giorno sab, 27/09/2008 alle 17.46 -0400, Colin Walters ha scritto: > On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Kelly O'Hair wrote: > > > > I had a dream that someday, this kind of information could just be generated > > dynamically, by clicking on a link from the http:// repository pages. > > All based on the repository data on the servers. > > But alas, it was just a dream. :^( > > The dynamic generation is useful, but personally I would find a short > English paragraph or two overview of changes to be more useful. Look > at how Linus does a brief overview of Linux kernel releases, to pull > some random examples out of my Firefox history: > > http://lwn.net/Articles/293784/ > http://lwn.net/Articles/299639/ Hi! I don't know, but I see two things here, Kelly, or Xiomara (I guess), add a new tag to the hg repository, and this means a new build is out. We can easily shortlog all the changes from one tag to the other (commands were also posted on this list) and put them into a webpage. A small script will link these changes to the internal Sun bug tracking system (where we have no control, so is up to you at Sun to write hooks). Someone at this point can write a simple comment telling us all the extra information that are nice to know. This way the information is more complete. I have to admit that I rarely read long changelogs, instead, if a mapping with the bug database is available, I usually tend to see that. I guess that both worlds would be nice to have. The very cool thing to have is what Kelly suggested a couple of mails ago though (generate all this stuff on demand on the website for any given build). Cheers, Mario From Kelly.Ohair at Sun.COM Sat Sep 27 15:42:39 2008 From: Kelly.Ohair at Sun.COM (Kelly O'Hair) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:42:39 -0700 Subject: JDK 7 build 35 is available at the openjdk.java.net website In-Reply-To: <1222553929.3031.21.camel@nirvana> References: <20080925204015.GC27651@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <20080925213500.8B70A780E@eggemoggin.niobe.net> <20080926192534.GB21825@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <48DE8D26.9070401@sun.com> <1222553929.3031.21.camel@nirvana> Message-ID: <48DEB6DF.1030501@sun.com> Isn't too hard to replace a bugid reference with: http://bugs.sun.com/view_bug.do?bug_id=NNNNNNN And a changeset reference to something like http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk7/jdk7/rev/XXXXXXXXXXXX `hg paths default`/rev/XXXXXXXXXXXX In my opinion, we need to automate this, not dedicate more resources to manual processes. It may be that the optional "Summary:" line in the changeset comments needs to be less optional. There is no ONE person that knows the overall impact of all the changesets, we need to rely on the individual developers to explain themselves, in the bug synopsis, the bug description, or the changeset Summary: line. -kto Mario Torre wrote: > Il giorno sab, 27/09/2008 alle 17.46 -0400, Colin Walters ha scritto: >> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Kelly O'Hair wrote: >>> I had a dream that someday, this kind of information could just be generated >>> dynamically, by clicking on a link from the http:// repository pages. >>> All based on the repository data on the servers. >>> But alas, it was just a dream. :^( >> The dynamic generation is useful, but personally I would find a short >> English paragraph or two overview of changes to be more useful. Look >> at how Linus does a brief overview of Linux kernel releases, to pull >> some random examples out of my Firefox history: >> >> http://lwn.net/Articles/293784/ >> http://lwn.net/Articles/299639/ > > Hi! > > I don't know, but I see two things here, Kelly, or Xiomara (I guess), > add a new tag to the hg repository, and this means a new build is out. > We can easily shortlog all the changes from one tag to the other > (commands were also posted on this list) and put them into a webpage. A > small script will link these changes to the internal Sun bug tracking > system (where we have no control, so is up to you at Sun to write hooks). > Someone at this point can write a simple comment telling us all the > extra information that are nice to know. > > This way the information is more complete. > > I have to admit that I rarely read long changelogs, instead, if a > mapping with the bug database is available, I usually tend to see that. > > I guess that both worlds would be nice to have. > > The very cool thing to have is what Kelly suggested a couple of mails > ago though (generate all this stuff on demand on the website for any > given build). > > Cheers, > Mario > From Ray.Gans at Sun.COM Mon Sep 29 15:07:39 2008 From: Ray.Gans at Sun.COM (Ray Gans) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:07:39 -0700 Subject: OpenJDK Community Innovators' Challenge Awards Announced Message-ID: <8DB8DC12-AD4E-4F59-A370-40B71686FE2C@sun.com> Today Sun announced the winning projects of the OpenJDK Community Innovators' Challenge Awards at Sun Tech Days Sao Paulo, Brazil. http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/pr/2008-09/sunflash.20080929.3.xml The winners are: GOLD: Implement XRender pipeline for Java2D - Clemens Eisserer SILVER: Closures for Java - Neal Gafter BRONZE: Provide date and time library from JSR-310 - Stephen Colebourne, Michael Nascimento Santos BRONZE: Portable GUI backends - Roman Kennke, Mario Torre More information about the Innovators' Challenge can be found here: http://openjdk.java.net/challenge/ Congratulations to the winners and thanks to everyone who participated through projects, proposals and feedback! From neugens at limasoftware.net Mon Sep 29 15:14:06 2008 From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 00:14:06 +0200 Subject: OpenJDK Community Innovators' Challenge Awards Announced In-Reply-To: <8DB8DC12-AD4E-4F59-A370-40B71686FE2C@sun.com> References: <8DB8DC12-AD4E-4F59-A370-40B71686FE2C@sun.com> Message-ID: <1222726446.2957.16.camel@nirvana> Il giorno lun, 29/09/2008 alle 15.07 -0700, Ray Gans ha scritto: > Congratulations to the winners and thanks to everyone who participated > through projects, proposals and feedback! > Ray, thanks to you for your great job! And congratulations to all the winners and finalists! Cheers, Mario From gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org Mon Sep 29 17:49:34 2008 From: gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org (Andrew John Hughes) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:49:34 +0100 Subject: Fwd: OpenJDK Community Innovators' Challenge Awards Announced In-Reply-To: <20080930004226.GD1303@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> References: <8DB8DC12-AD4E-4F59-A370-40B71686FE2C@sun.com> <1222726446.2957.16.camel@nirvana> <20080930004226.GD1303@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> Message-ID: <17c6771e0809291749l95b93deo289bbde7d22a1b4d@mail.gmail.com> Discuss seems to be broken; I got this message when sending a GPG-signed mail: The message's content type was not explicitly allowed ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andrew John Hughes Date: 2008/9/30 Subject: Re: OpenJDK Community Innovators' Challenge Awards Announced To: Mario Torre Cc: Ray Gans , discuss at openjdk.java.net, challenge-discuss at openjdk.java.net On 00:14 Tue 30 Sep , Mario Torre wrote: > Il giorno lun, 29/09/2008 alle 15.07 -0700, Ray Gans ha scritto: > > > > Congratulations to the winners and thanks to everyone who participated > > through projects, proposals and feedback! > > > Ray, thanks to you for your great job! > > And congratulations to all the winners and finalists! > > Cheers, > Mario > Will there be any explanation of how the finalists were judged? I'd be interested to know why one project got 'bronze' and another got 'gold' for example. Thanks, -- Andrew :) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://openjdk.java.net PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint = F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8 From openjdk at jazillian.com Tue Sep 30 06:39:25 2008 From: openjdk at jazillian.com (Andy Tripp) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:39:25 -0400 Subject: OpenJDK Community Innovators' Challenge Awards Announced In-Reply-To: <20080930004226.GD1303@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> References: <8DB8DC12-AD4E-4F59-A370-40B71686FE2C@sun.com> <1222726446.2957.16.camel@nirvana> <20080930004226.GD1303@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> Message-ID: <48E22C0D.7030304@jazillian.com> I'd also be interested to know why the non-winners were not eligible. Andrew John Hughes wrote: > Will there be any explanation of how the finalists were judged? > I'd be interested to know why one project got 'bronze' and another > got 'gold' for example. > > Thanks, From Ray.Gans at Sun.COM Tue Sep 30 12:31:16 2008 From: Ray.Gans at Sun.COM (Ray Gans) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:31:16 -0700 Subject: OpenJDK Community Innovators' Challenge Awards Announced In-Reply-To: <48E22C0D.7030304@jazillian.com> References: <8DB8DC12-AD4E-4F59-A370-40B71686FE2C@sun.com> <1222726446.2957.16.camel@nirvana> <20080930004226.GD1303@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <48E22C0D.7030304@jazillian.com> Message-ID: <84209EC9-4EA0-4980-B04F-189A04336725@sun.com> I won't justify the decisions of the judges or mention any specifics, but the process used was to first determine if the finalists completed the deliverables listed in their proposals and that they met all other requirements of the contest rules [1], For those that did, and by using the materials presented as their Final Project submissions, each project was evaluated by the judges for technical merit and value to the community. Ranking was established through discussion and weightings defined by the contest rules. The results were one first place winner, one second place winner and two tied for third place. -Ray 1. http://openjdk.java.net/challenge/rules/ On Sep 30, 2008, at 6:39 AM, Andy Tripp wrote: > I'd also be interested to know why the non-winners were not eligible. > > > Andrew John Hughes wrote: >> Will there be any explanation of how the finalists were judged? >> I'd be interested to know why one project got 'bronze' and another >> got 'gold' for example. >> Thanks, > From openjdk at jazillian.com Tue Sep 30 15:22:34 2008 From: openjdk at jazillian.com (Andy Tripp) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:22:34 -0400 Subject: OpenJDK Community Innovators' Challenge Awards Announced In-Reply-To: <84209EC9-4EA0-4980-B04F-189A04336725@sun.com> References: <8DB8DC12-AD4E-4F59-A370-40B71686FE2C@sun.com> <1222726446.2957.16.camel@nirvana> <20080930004226.GD1303@rivendell.middle-earth.co.uk> <48E22C0D.7030304@jazillian.com> <84209EC9-4EA0-4980-B04F-189A04336725@sun.com> Message-ID: <48E2A6AA.20103@jazillian.com> Thanks Ray, The reason I asked is so that people who might be interested in applying next year (if there is one) can be aware of where they need to be careful about. As a casual observer, it looked like all the submissions were complete. I'd hate to apply next year and do the work, only to find that it's not considered by Sun to be complete. Congratulations on a well run contest! Andy Ray Gans wrote: > I won't justify the decisions of the judges or mention any specifics, > but the process used was to first determine if the finalists completed > the deliverables listed in their proposals and that they met all other > requirements of the contest rules [1], For those that did, and by using > the materials presented as their Final Project submissions, each project > was evaluated by the judges for technical merit and value to the > community. Ranking was established through discussion and weightings > defined by the contest rules. The results were one first place winner, > one second place winner and two tied for third place. > > -Ray > > 1. http://openjdk.java.net/challenge/rules/ > > On Sep 30, 2008, at 6:39 AM, Andy Tripp wrote: > >> I'd also be interested to know why the non-winners were not eligible. >> >> >> Andrew John Hughes wrote: >>> Will there be any explanation of how the finalists were judged? >>> I'd be interested to know why one project got 'bronze' and another >>> got 'gold' for example. >>> Thanks, >> >