From brian.beck at sun.com  Thu Jun  7 11:21:13 2007
From: brian.beck at sun.com (Brian Beck)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:21:13 -0700
Subject: <Swing Dev> Project proposal: fbtoolkit
References: E3F3383C-B39B-49E8-B4B9-102184721177@sun.com
Message-ID: <46684C99.20208@sun.com>

On May 23rd we were asked by Tom Marble to consider sponsoring the 
creation of the fbtoolkit project [1].   I'd like to wrap up the 
discussion on this request; tying up loose threads as it were.

It seems to me that the proposed project is actually much more related 
to AWT than Swing.  In fact, it looks like the AWT group is planning to 
hold a vote on sponsoring this project in the next week. [2]   Also, 
apart from the initial flurry of procedural questions, we haven't seen 
much discussion on this topic and none of the swing-dev members has 
expressed an opinion.  Given these things, I think it would be best to 
defer to the decision of the AWT group on the question of sponsorship.  
I plan to let the request expire without calling for an official vote 
from the swing-dev group.  

Brian Beck
(swing-dev co-moderator)

[1] http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/swing-dev/2007-May/000006.html
[2] http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/discuss/2007-June/000077.html



From roman.kennke at aicas.com  Fri Jun 22 05:54:37 2007
From: roman.kennke at aicas.com (Roman Kennke)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 14:54:37 +0200
Subject: <Swing Dev> pluggable AWT peers/graphicsenv
Message-ID: <1182516877.6166.57.camel@mercury>

Hi all,

I am crossposting this because I think this could affects all GUI
development (mainly AWT and J2D, but also a little Swing) in some way or
another. There really should be a gui-dev mailing list for things like
this.

I am plannig to implement the missing pieces to make the AWT/Java2D
implementation 'pluggable', thus separating the abstract stuff in
java.awt from the actual implementation. The goal is to be able to
provide alternative implementations for the AWT widgets and the Java2D
stack. This is actually for a significant part already finished in
java.awt.peer (and some classes in java.awt). This works pretty well now
for the widgets and important parts of Java2D with OpenJDK and external
GTK peers [1]. Also, the AWT implementation of GNU Classpath can serve
as a proof-of-concept and source of inspiration. There we already
support 3 different AWT/J2D implementations (GTK, Qt and plain X) all of
which have their own native widgets, fonts, graphics and images. The
JamaicaVM has a some more implementations for a couple of embedded
systems. Another example is the newly approved fbtoolkit implementation
which basically plugs into the java.awt.peer interfaces too.

The biggest road block to this right now seems to be the font
implementation which is (afaics) the only area in J2D which isn't
abstracted out nicely. The other areas should require little to no work,
as it is already provided by the peer interfaces and the
GraphicsEnvironment and friends classes.

Note also that I don't intent to touch the public API. I consider this
fine as it is and we shouldn't spoil it more than it is now
(java.awt.Toolkit, ugh). Also note that I don't intent to introduce
another toolkit/j2d implementation, but 'only' refactor what is there
now so that it is _possible_ to do.

There seems to be some serious scepticism about this [2][3] which might
be a good thing. So I'm pondering whether it is worth the effort doing
this inside OpenJDK or if I should rather do it in an external project
(avoiding the f-word here), with the option to merge the changes in
later down the road. I'd think that this is better done inside OpenJDK,
especially with the valuable input of you all. IMO this would result in
a better archtictured AWT for everybody. On the other hand, if I do this
externally you wouldn't be bothered so much with stuff that you have no
interest in anyway and I could probably progress faster.

I'd like to hear your opinions on that issue with the goal to reach a
decision whether we should try to develop that inside OpenJDK or if I
should better do it separately. I'd also like to keep the technical
considerations low (let's do that if we decide for yes). I know it's
possible to do and I am going to do this anyway, the question is as part
of OpenJDK or not.

[1] http://kennke.org/blog/2007/06/21/gtk-peers-on-openjdk/
[2] http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/awt-dev/2007-June/000050.html
[3] http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/awt-dev/2007-June/000040.html

Cheers, Roman
-- 
Dipl.-Inform. (FH) Roman Kennke, Software Engineer, http://kennke.org
aicas Allerton Interworks Computer Automated Systems GmbH
Haid-und-Neu-Stra?e 18 * D-76131 Karlsruhe * Germany
http://www.aicas.com   * Tel: +49-721-663 968-0
USt-Id: DE216375633, Handelsregister HRB 109481, AG Karlsruhe
Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Dr. James J. Hunt



From roman.kennke at aicas.com  Fri Jun 22 08:03:11 2007
From: roman.kennke at aicas.com (Roman Kennke)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:03:11 +0200
Subject: <Swing Dev> [OpenJDK 2D-Dev] pluggable AWT peers/graphicsenv
In-Reply-To: <1182516877.6166.57.camel@mercury>
References: <1182516877.6166.57.camel@mercury>
Message-ID: <1182524591.6166.63.camel@mercury>

Hi again,

> I'd like to hear your opinions on that issue with the goal to reach a
> decision whether we should try to develop that inside OpenJDK or if I
> should better do it separately. I'd also like to keep the technical
> considerations low (let's do that if we decide for yes). I know it's
> possible to do and I am going to do this anyway, the question is as
> part
> of OpenJDK or not.

One more thing. In order to keep the discussion sanely on one thread, I
propose everybody answers on one list only, say awt-dev.

/Roman

-- 
Dipl.-Inform. (FH) Roman Kennke, Software Engineer, http://kennke.org
aicas Allerton Interworks Computer Automated Systems GmbH
Haid-und-Neu-Stra?e 18 * D-76131 Karlsruhe * Germany
http://www.aicas.com   * Tel: +49-721-663 968-0
USt-Id: DE216375633, Handelsregister HRB 109481, AG Karlsruhe
Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Dr. James J. Hunt



From Alexander.Potochkin at Sun.COM  Tue Jun 26 03:22:14 2007
From: Alexander.Potochkin at Sun.COM (Alexander Potochkin)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:22:14 +0400
Subject: <Swing Dev> Swing Actions + Icons + Menus
Message-ID: <4680E8D6.1030200@sun.com>

Hello swing-dev

Recently we discussed this blog
http://cafe.elharo.com/java/menu-icons-considered-ugly/

and didn't come to a unified conclusion

There were two opposite opinion about actions + icons + menus

===== First opinion =====

The statement "Menu Icons Considered Ugly"
is a personal opinion and not a common belief

Our native Look and Feels - Windows and GTK
support icons in menus just like respective OS's do

If icons in menus are not common in MacOs,
Apple can introduce a UI property in their native MacOs Look and Feel
to switch off the icons for menus

If someone just doesn't like the icons in the menus
there is a clear solution:

menuItem.setIcon(null); //arbitrarily chose not to use icon


===== Second opinion =====

We should add a new functionality to the Swing Actoins
to make it possible to switch the icons off for a menuItem
and show the icon for a button with the same Action

The new RFE is filed
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6572890


What do you guys think about that ?

Thanks
alexp




From Pavel.Porvatov at Sun.COM  Tue Jun 26 05:52:52 2007
From: Pavel.Porvatov at Sun.COM (Pavel Porvatov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:52:52 +0400
Subject: <Swing Dev> Swing Actions + Icons + Menus
In-Reply-To: <4680E8D6.1030200@sun.com>
References: <4680E8D6.1030200@sun.com>
Message-ID: <46810C24.4090106@sun.com>

Hi Alexander,

I select First opinion with small comments:
 > ===== First opinion =====
 >
 > The statement "Menu Icons Considered Ugly"
 > is a personal opinion and not a common belief
YES!!!

 > Our native Look and Feels - Windows and GTK
 > support icons in menus just like respective OS's do
Yes.

 > If someone just doesn't like the icons in the menus
 > there is a clear solution:
 >
 > menuItem.setIcon(null); //arbitrarily chose not to use icon
 >
Yes, moreover I don't like buttons with images at all and most of nice 
application don't have at the same time images and text on buttons.

Thanks, Pavel.

> Hello swing-dev
> 
> Recently we discussed this blog
> http://cafe.elharo.com/java/menu-icons-considered-ugly/
> 
> and didn't come to a unified conclusion
> 
> There were two opposite opinion about actions + icons + menus
> 
> ===== First opinion =====
> 
> The statement "Menu Icons Considered Ugly"
> is a personal opinion and not a common belief
> 
> Our native Look and Feels - Windows and GTK
> support icons in menus just like respective OS's do
> 
> If icons in menus are not common in MacOs,
> Apple can introduce a UI property in their native MacOs Look and Feel
> to switch off the icons for menus
> 
> If someone just doesn't like the icons in the menus
> there is a clear solution:
> 
> menuItem.setIcon(null); //arbitrarily chose not to use icon
> 
> 
> ===== Second opinion =====
> 
> We should add a new functionality to the Swing Actoins
> to make it possible to switch the icons off for a menuItem
> and show the icon for a button with the same Action
> 
> The new RFE is filed
> http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6572890
> 
> 
> What do you guys think about that ?
> 
> Thanks
> alexp
> 
>