Moving on to a "round house kick" (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)

Felix Bembrick felix.bembrick at
Mon Sep 30 11:13:14 PDT 2013

@John, I do not believe it is too late for JavaFX on mobiles and tablets.

It is a far better UI toolkit and platform than anything else available on those devices so if Oracle can get it to work well there then we are looking at a potential world beater :-)

> On 1 Oct 2013, at 2:27, John Hendrikx <hjohn at> wrote:
>> On 30/09/2013 17:38, Anton Epple wrote:
>> Hi guys,
>>  I understand your frustration about the cancelled sessions, and I share it. But when I talk to the engineers and see their posts here, they're clearly interested in the same stuff we'd like to see in JavaFX. I guess nobody was more frustrated that these sessions were cancelled than the engineers who submitted them. If you want to talk about something new and exiting you will have to let some company lawyers approve it. This takes some time. My guess is, that the approval for the talks might not have arrived in time.
> To be honest, it is likely JavaFX already missed its window to become relevant on Android and iOS.  These platforms are not waiting for anyone and are being aggressively pushed into all kinds of new areas (console gaming, entertainment hubs, general productivity, etc).  Oracle should count itself lucky that Google even used a Java-like language for its platform or they'd stand no chance at all anymore in this space. There are already dozens of frameworks that work with Dalvik that compete in atleast part of the same space as JavaFX -- many of them cross platform.  Just one of these needs to be actively pushed by a big name and gone is your opportunity.
> These markets donot move at the snails pace that lawyers and courts move.  Limiting yourself to the speed of your legal department is a guaranteed way to become irrelevant.
> My 2 cents
> --John
>> If I was right, and the reason for the talks being removed are just of temporary nature, then I guess the best strategy now is to "keep calm and carry on" for a bit.
>> Regards
>> --Toni
>> P.s.: @Matthias:
>> Regarding your thoughts about JavaFX in a browser:
>> - WORA matters - I think it's the whole point that started this discussion.
>> - Using Cordova you can package your app as a native app. So you've got a working solution, which is admittedly not feature complete and not usable for every application, but much better than nothing.
>> - JavaScript is a huge problem as it leads to ugly unmaintainable code. Right now there are tons of projects desperately trying to solve that issue (GWT, typescript, ...). bck2brwsr is one of the solutions. It enables you to write clean Java(FX) code and still run in the browser without the need to install any plugin. So bck2brwsr solves a real world problem. That's why it matters.
>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 14:03 schrieb Matthias Hänel<haenel at>:
>>> Hi,
>>> @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without choking on it. Sure there
>>> are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy over and over again about
>>> the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we have a running bussiness
>>> where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology.
>>> This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an active member of this community.
>>> He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the counterpart by managing the
>>> backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers.
>>> Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal workshops for the developers
>>> to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This summer we focused our development
>>> on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning APIs and fixing JNI for java8.
>>> Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our fellow developers has been
>>> more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream "code-once-run-anywhere" comes true. The closer
>>> JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the more we got fed up over here.
>>> As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had been held. Just to summarize
>>> our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is investment of money and time on
>>> one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future technology.
>>> I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they appear over here.
>>> What did we heard over here from JavaOne?
>>> 1. JavaFX is still in development
>>> 2. Dukepad is released
>>> 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup
>>> (4. Javafx runs in a browser)
>>> I'll start at the bottom:
>>> (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript and web technologies as well.
>>> This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere applies but all tough real world
>>> applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and won't be cross platform in the near future.)
>>> 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup.
>>> I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the world. I don't speak only about JavaFX,
>>> there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much here.
>>> 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, hacking firmware and much cool stuff
>>> in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle
>>> with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting angry to see a 100 men powered development
>>> team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo
>>> on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word about iOS, Android, Windows8.
>>> Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? I am really sure non of the major
>>> hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since Android is also free to us and is
>>> much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that Oracle comes up with their own
>>> iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision make no sense to me.
>>> 1. JavaFX is in active development is the only great news for me. As of today it looks like a major development for
>>> years that is not released for actual use. For me it is currently just a very big shiny demo.
>>> short history summarize:
>>> ------------------------
>>> 4 years ago when javafx1 hit's the world, desktop use was okay. JavaFX1 couldn't really convince due to an strange way
>>> of design. It is okay to make an mistake and to learn from it, so JavaFX2 was create. The software design is outstanding
>>> and the potential is not even comparable from my point of view. Well, it was already time to look at the other platforms.
>>> 2012 it was announced (but canceled) to run on iOS/Android and now 2013 it was announced again (but canceled).
>>> From our current point of view it looks like we just have to use the already developed parts on desktop and for mobile
>>> we will have to start a complete new development branch. This will work for a short time but in the long term we'll
>>> probably step back from JavaFX and even Java and develop our own abstraction layer. This is sad and costs a lot of time
>>> that we would need to build our real products.
>>> To make it clear. Everytime I read arm-build I think there is further development in the right direction, but wrong
>>> it's still the same linux-arm-build. We don't need an arm build for javafx. We need an iOS-build, an Android-build
>>> and a Windows-build for the jre and javafx. Don't get me wrong you can prototype where ever you want even on Pi, but
>>> don't forget to deploy to a platform of importance.
>>> One more thing:
>>> ---------------
>>> To be honest ADF is kind of a myth to me. I see some use cases for a technology like this but not many. It's always
>>> the same lame banking software.
>>> Okay, ADF is a really easy to use in business software (banking,insurance and so on) and very small and easy projects on the other side.
>>> If a customer has a little more demand on new technologies you'll be lost with ADF, then comes JavaFX in the game.
>>> Porting from ADF to JavaFX should be that hard, but you cannot deploy it on the same platforms like ADF. There is a gap
>>> in the portfolio from my point of view.
>>> these are my 2 cents
>>> Matthias
>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 12:13 schrieb Felix Bembrick<felix.bembrick at>:
>>>> Hey, I am trying to hose-down the political talk!  I encourage everyone to
>>>> take a deep breath and focus on the many positives of the awesome
>>>> technology that is JavaFX :-)
>>>>> On 30 September 2013 20:03, Hervé Girod<herve.girod at>  wrote:
>>>>> It's not the place to talk politics here. If you want to channel your
>>>>> frustration, do it in your blog if you have one.
>>>>> Hervé
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> On 30 sept. 2013, at 11:14, Tobias Bley<tobi at> wrote:
>>>>>> I absolutely agree Daniel. I opened a very important bug reporting
>>>>> concerning JFX performance on iPhone which currently prevents using JavaFX
>>>>> (and RoboVM) to build apps for the iPhone (
>>>>> this bug report is open
>>>>> since 3(!) month!  How shall the community build things for iOS if a very
>>>>> base feature (bug) is not fixed by Oracles core team??? It’s a very bad
>>>>> sign for engaged developers outside Oracle!
>>>>>> So maybe we should say good by to the legacy of SUN and use web
>>>>> technologies like JQuery, ExtJS, … with real community power and without an
>>>>> US company who sees only money and legal issues.
>>>>>> Maybe Larry loves to spend millions of dollars to win a boat race and
>>>>> develop experimental „iPads“ rather then spend their time and money to
>>>>> develop a technology with could be the base for ALL products, on Desktop,
>>>>> embedded space, mobile, watches, …
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Tobi
>>>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 10:39 schrieb Daniel Zwolenski<zonski at>:
>>>>>>> The lack of information on iOS/Android is a major bummer, but this also
>>>>> highlights a deeper problem here.
>>>>>>> We have a situation where Oracle won't talk to this community because
>>>>> the topic is important, it's too big a game changer for them to comment on.
>>>>> It's tied in with share prices, and market strategies.
>>>>>>> So won't that be the case for anything *important* going forward? We
>>>>> "community" members are outsiders and very lowly ranked, well below "real"
>>>>> customers and even below random punters from the media. There's not even a
>>>>> way for us to rank bugs and get them attention (even if we provide fixes!).
>>>>>>> What kind of community can this ever be if anything important can't be
>>>>> discussed here before it's locked in, because it risks Oracle giving up a
>>>>> commercial edge? Is this then a community only for discussing our favourite
>>>>> method names for the API and pointing out that an enum constant is missing?
>>>>>>> I can't see any way that this forum provides any significant
>>>>> contributions back to the platform - the occasional bug fix at best. JIRA
>>>>> is fine for discussing bugs, method names and little things like that. Any
>>>>> of the real community initiatives are run completely separate to this forum
>>>>> because Oracle doesn't want anything to do with them, and all the
>>>>> significant platform work takes place behind Oracle's closed doors and we
>>>>> only hear about it after it's a done deal.
>>>>>>> From where I'm standing, the Oracle community concept is fundamentally
>>>>> flawed, and the root cause is that Oracle just don't get how to interact
>>>>> with a community. You want to use us but you're not very good at it, you're
>>>>> not trying to improve (you don't think there's a problem) and ultimately
>>>>> Oracle's culture won't let you do it properly anyway. The current approach
>>>>> is a little like a car salesman trying to be your Facebook "friend".
>>>>>>> All the initiatives I got involved with through this forum have gone
>>>>> nowhere - deployment (auto updating), the early Maven deployment work
>>>>> (which Richard asked for), the tower defender game (which Richard asked
>>>>> for), the jfx browser (which Richard asked for), even stuff as simple as
>>>>> JIRA dashboards (which Richard again asked for).
>>>>>>> All these hit points where they needed Oracle to do their part of it
>>>>> and then just stalled and then died. This community could have fostered a
>>>>> lot of tools and efforts, and really propelled JFX into the bigger dev
>>>>> community, but instead, for me, it has been a constant source of stress and
>>>>> dissatisfaction, a hinderance and a hurdle. All pain, no gain.
>>>>>>> The only initiatives I actually made work were the JavaFX Maven plugin
>>>>> and the RoboVM Maven plugin. With both of these I made a conscious decision
>>>>> to not involve this forum or Oracle. I decided to cludge around platform
>>>>> shortcomings, rather than work with Oracle to fix it (5 minute fixes would
>>>>> have saved me days of work).
>>>>>>> That was the only way I could make these initiatives succeed since this
>>>>> forum is a hinderance to contributing. It gives a false sense that Oracle
>>>>> is listening and actively supporting the community. To anyone out there
>>>>> wanting to do something in JFX tool space, I'd say start by leaving this
>>>>> forum and working out what you can do without any access to the Oracle
>>>>> guys, even if you make your own code contributions to the platform. Assume
>>>>> you're an outsider - the cavalry is not coming, you're on your own.
>>>>>>> Given all that I'm walking away from this forum. I was waiting to hear
>>>>> about the iOS/Android stuff first, but really even if they did announce
>>>>> anything, it would be a long shot at best (untested, low resources, lack of
>>>>> solid direction and most likely tied in with some Oracle ADF garbage or
>>>>> similar). The uncertainty created by Oracle's mixed messages also killed
>>>>> all momentum on the community RoboVM work. Meanwhile web based stuff is
>>>>> getting stronger, cleaner and better tool support at an exponential rate,
>>>>> including in the mobile space.
>>>>>>> If JavaFX one day actually provides a usable platform for non-Oracle
>>>>> entrenched customers, and the developer world notices, I'll certainly
>>>>> consider it. I reckon I'll hear about that through the usual tech media
>>>>> channels first, rather than through here though. As Oracle themselves
>>>>> pointed out at the 2012 JavaOne session the smart money is on web based
>>>>> stuff (check out backbone.js and marionette.js for a desktop-like coding
>>>>> experience, not bad and will get better faster than JFX improves).
>>>>>>> On that note, the JavaFX Maven plugin is about to go into decay mode.
>>>>> It needs to be updated to work on Maven 3.1 (some libraries have changed
>>>>> from 3.0) and there are a number of bugs and feature requests building up
>>>>> that I've been ignoring. I have no incentive to do any of this so it will
>>>>> unfortunately just rot. If anyone wants to pick it up, let me know (you
>>>>> need a few free hours a week just to maintain it). I'm picking up stumps
>>>>> and moving on.
>>>>>>> I also have the access rights for the openjfx Maven repo on Sonatype
>>>>> (needed to deploy to Maven central). I imagine Sonatype would grant this
>>>>> access to others if you apply and make a case for it, but if anyone wants
>>>>> to do this let me know and I can notify sonatype to give you access and
>>>>> save you some hassles.
>>>>>>> I think Niklas has the RoboVM Maven Plugin sorted now and can do
>>>>> enhancements on that but I'm sure if anyone wanted to help him out he
>>>>> wouldn't say no.
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Tobias Bley<tobi at>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I don’t understand why „all“ this people who needs JavaFX on
>>>>> iOS/Android does not tell it Oracles management. And I don’t understand why
>>>>> all this people use their time to develop all this demos and Rasp.PI stuff.
>>>>> Who needs it? Why don’t we develop base stuff like iOS skins, Android
>>>>> skins, iOS/Android widgets, RoboVM for Android, RoboVM using OpenJDK, … I
>>>>> really love useful stuff like the „JavaFX maven plugin“ or the „AquaFX“
>>>>> project. That kind of development we need!
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Tobi
>>>>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 08:50 schrieb Felix Bembrick<
>>>>> felix.bembrick at>:
>>>>>>>> No, you are *not* the only one. We *all* need it.  In fact, without it
>>>>> happening soon, JavaFX is already dead.
>>>>>>>> But let's not give up yet.  Perhaps it's closer than we know. I am a
>>>>> glass half full kinda guy :-)
>>>>>>>>> On 30 Sep 2013, at 16:40, Tobias Bley<tobi at>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I suppose „legal reasons“….
>>>>>>>>> For me it’s very frustrating to see every year the same procedure:
>>>>> JavaFX-iOS/Android related tracks were canceled - „nerd“ stuff like
>>>>> Rasp.PI, DukePad&  Co were announced. Maybe I’m really the only one who
>>>>> needs JavaFX on mobile to use JavaFX on desktop as well… :(
>>>>>>>>>> Am 29.09.2013 um 18:13 schrieb Jeff Martin<jeff at>:
>>>>>>>>>> It seems the JFX on iOS/Android were cancelled at the last moment. I
>>>>> tried to keep expectations low this year, but I admit I harbored secret
>>>>> hopes based on those sessions (a few embarrassingly optimistic
>>>>> conversations with clients notwithstanding).
>>>>>>>>>> Last week Tomas offered this:
>>>>>>>>>>> about cancelled sessions please contact Mr. JavaOne
>>>>> stephen.chin at I believe he will give satisfactory answer.
>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to take him up on that satisfactory offer. Also, can we run
>>>>> the name "DukePad" by marketing again?
>>>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>> jeff
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 29, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Daniel Zwolenski<zonski at>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The sessions aren't up yet from the looks of it. It would be great
>>>>> to get an overall roundup of any new announcements or directions in any
>>>>> case. Given this is the developer community network it would make sense in
>>>>> my mind to highlight stuff like that in here.
>>>>>>>>>>> For me, I'd love it if someone could quickly sum up any
>>>>> announcements or sessions made about JavaFX for iOS, Android or in the
>>>>> deployment space?
>>>>>>>>>>> What happened at the sessions Tobi highlighted before (
>>>>>, did anyone go to these and able to
>>>>> give us some info?
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/09/2013, at 7:07 AM, Richard Bair<richard.bair at>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> The sessions, I think, are all being uploaded to Parley's (
>>>>>, although I don't see any content there yet (not
>>>>> sure how long it will take them to post-process, but usually it is pretty
>>>>> fast).
>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Daniel Zwolenski<zonski at>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone done or seen any good roundups (text or video) of the
>>>>> JavaOne sessions relating to javafx?

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